Sandfarbe uniform discussion

[Asbjoern]

The evolution of buttons...for exact dates I have to look at my books at home...:
From 1955 on there where tree types: "altgold" (old-gold) for Heer and Luftwaffe except generals, these wore brigtht golden buttons from the beginning. The marine allready had their own type of buttons showing the unclear anchor - the only change was from real gilded buttons to polished brass buttons. For Heer an LW in the late 50ies/early 60ies the altgold was exchanged with "altsilber" (old-silver) for the officer grad uniforms first. The last change was to the buttons in aluminum finish - which where still worn today- for all ranks beside generals. This change was in the late 60ies?!?. All changes where independent from the change in the uniform style!

The evolution of tunics:
1955 - 1957 the short Affenjacke with three rows of buttons plus the long two pocket jacket with four rows of buttons.

early 1958 the new 4 pocket tunic with french cuffs was invented, it should be worn on more formal occasions while the older jackets should be used up in everyday service... thats the cause for so many old jackets being upgraded with new stile shoulderboards, unit patches etc as this phase lasted until the mid 60ies!! At the beginning the new tunic was still in dark grey.

In 1963 the colour became lighter, the rounded shoulderboards and the coloured pipings for EM where invented.

In 1970 the new uniform without french cuffs came in use (a fellow collector owns such a tunic from 1970) . The coloured pipings went out of use in the following time (I own a private purchased jacket with yellow piping without f-cuffs purchased 1970 or 1972).

Between 1963 and 1970 there was a constant change in grey ... so the last "old stile" jackets where in the same light grey as the first "new" ones ... beside that even today some "traditional" guys choose a very dark grey for their private purchased uniforms...so you cant say anything official depending on this private stuff...(look at this jacket in post #1:http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/FORU...=381579&page=2)

The sandcoloured uniforms underwent the same changes in design! The french cuffs where dropped at the same time, the buttons where changed at the same time ! And as far as I know the marine had different jackets ! While Heer and LW had sewn on buttons plus real french cuffs there is a marine version identical to the white boardjackets with removable buttons and fake f-cuffs.

Jens

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Jens,

Thanks for that!! I forgot about the very early button type and the distinction of officers in the late 1950s. Kunstwadl actually did a good job showing those changes, but I forgot

1970 is a good suggestion for the date change between old and new Dienstanzug. I have seen old type definitely 1967, I've seen new type definitely 1971. Therefore, 1970 is probably correct (though 1969 might also be valid?). I think 1st Model Moleskin changed to 2nd Model Moleskin at the same time.

As for the Sandfarbe jacket, both of mine (pictured in this thread) have removable buttons. The Marine Sandfarbe jacket I have (not pictured in this thread) also has removable buttons, but otherwise it is quite different. It is also from the 1970s while the other two are from the 1960s.

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

Kunstwadl does have a good write up on some buttons but Jens has a better grasp owhen they were worn. I was after accurate data on original uniforms. Especially Marine buttons. When buttons came into use and when they were actually worn is always a moving target. Especially on uniforms such as the sandfarben ones where the buttons are easily removed. Also they were updated as button styles changed so you can only say that a tunic past a certain date would not normally have old buttons. This of course is subject to what Jens referred to with soldiers/airmen/sailors modifying their own uniforms.
I would like to see this Marine sandfarben tunic that you say is quite different from your other sandfarben tunics. I don't see any difference between my Marine sandfarben tunic and others. My tunics are dated in the 60s.

Regards,

Gordon

[Asbjoern]

Thaks for the trust ... I´ll try to confirm these dates in the future...

Gordon, possible we talk of two different kind of sandfarben jackets... the ones I ment is the sandcoloured version of the boardjacket! That there is a jacket similar to the Heer/LW type is new to me ...

Jens

[Guardian 5]

Team - Attached below find a picture of Bundeswehr paratroopers from
Fallschirmjägerbataillon 261 donning "die KHAKI" uniform in the latter part of August 1971.

During this period the battalion took part in Operation "HELENIC EXPRESS" in Greece.

Not much in the way of detail, but hopefully it will somehow serve to aid the conversation. I noticed at least one individual wearing the gray, "continental" rank epaulette. They also appear to be wearing "bloused" jump boots in the American style. I'm impressed by the fact that they managed to keep the uniform looking pretty sharp, even under field conditions.

The picture was scanned from the exellent work, "40 Jahre Fallschirmjägerbataillon 261", by Wilhelm Schorn.

All the best - TJ

[Gordon Craig]

Jens,

I have never heard of, or seen, a sand coloured board jacke. For Marine sandfarben in wear see page 71 of Kunstwadl, shirt sleeve order only, and Hormann page 170 for a sandfarben tunic in wear by a Marine Obermaat wearing 1970 Bundesmarine Dienstgradabzeichen.

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

Gordon,

Yes, Jens' description of dates was very helpful! Hopefully I can help a little bit with the Marine jacket by posting a picture of it here tomorrow. I see them on eBay every so often without badging or buttons. Couple this with the usual terrible pictures and descriptions it is easy for someone to buy it thinking they were getting a Sandfarbe jacket instead of what is probably Marine of some sort.

It is difficult to tell, but I think there are both Dienstanzug Sandfarbe and Boardjacke Sandfarbe variants out there. It is also possible they are exactly the same thing. The problem with photos is that cloth weight, texture, and interior details are sometimes very difficult to see, yet they often tell us a great deal of information.

This first picture is from eBay, IIRC, and is apparently a 1977 Dienstanzug. I have pictures of a similar one to this dated 1968.



This second one is of a type similar to my cotton version, the likely Boardjacke type:



Mine is dated 1975.

TJ,

Great picture! What crazy trousers they have! Since they are out in a field somewhere, I doubt these are Dienstanzug. But what exactly this stuff might be... no idea!

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

Thanks for the photos. Interesting tunics that I have not seen before. In looking over the pictures in Hormann's book the tunic I mentioned as "sandfarben" could be a tunic similar to the one you pictured from ebay. It is a black and white foto so it is hard to tell what material the tunic is made of. The caption refers to it as "sandfarbenen Rock des sommeranzug" and not a "bordjacke" which has a different connotation. Kunstwadl refers to the shirt and pants in wear on shipboard in his foto as "sanfarben anzu bekliedet". I guess we need to be careful about how we use the term "sandfarben' as the caption on the foto may simply be refering to the colour of the clothing in wear and not necessarily to the "sandfarben uniforms" we have been discussing.
Uwe has confirmed earlier in this thread that all three services wore the uniform that we refer to as "sandfarben". It would appear that the Marine had a sandfarben coloured uniform for wear that was made of a different material. Good new information for me.

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

Gordon,

Yes, I agree we are probably in a tricky terminology area. As you say, there are distinctly different possible uses. I personally break them

1. Special formal occasions
2. Common formal occasions
3. Common everyday use
4. Work/action use

Within these there can be variations, such as we discussed with the Gebirgsjäger having two different "Dienstanzug" possibilities to choose from based on the particulars of the occasion. The roles can also change over time or overlap, such as earlier Dienstanzug (same jacket, but the other stuff worn depended on occasion). Meaning that a generalized categorization of such things is generally full of footnotes.

The Bundesmairne is not my area of interest or expertise, so I'll leave sorting out this fun stuff to someone else

Steve

[MaxxBrunn1938]

I had two of these I picked up at GI Joe Army Navy Store back in 1980 when I was still in high school in Santa Barbara. One had gold pebbled buttons the other had navy ones. I think I paid under $10.00 for both of them back then.
I sold them many years ago in the late 80s done up as DAK one of them I wore at the old Great Western Gun Show and won third place in the uniform contest.
Wish I still had them now

Joe

[Asbjoern]

O.k., took the chance to read the Kunstwadl again at the weekend and to notice the dates he gives on the change in the button stile...:

The "altgold" buttons where worn by the officers until late 50ies (no year mentioned) and by EM / NCO until 1962. So Steves tunics where phased out before that date...

From 195? until 1962 the officers wore "altsilber" coloured buttons and changed then to the bright silver ones.

EM and NCO used altsilber for the period between 1963 and 1967. From 1967 on all rank used the bright silver buttons...

Marine allways used the "unclear achor" buttons - beside the change from gildet to brass there where darkened buttons for the first years to be worn on the "Affenjacke"

Jens

[Collectinsteve]

Excellent info, thanks!

OK, so it looks like this is what I should do to "fix" my jackets:

1963 Jacket
Remove altgold buttons and replace with altsilber. Replace pointed sandfarbe epaulettes with rounded type sandfarbe which are currently on my 1967 jacket.

1967 Jacket
Remove altgold buttons and replace with bright silver. Replace the rounded sandfarbe epauelttes with regular gray based epaulettes that are consistent with late 1960s, early 1970s. I must make sure the rank is junior NCO because I do not have any collar cord for either NCO or Officer.

That sound right?

Steve

[Asbjoern]

Steve, I think you are right with changing the shoulderboards... but one thing is left open by kunstwadl: I did not mention if this also happend to the sandcoloured stuff ! And at least you must not change the buttons and the boards at the 1963 tunic. If they write "until 1962" or "from 1963 onwards" it can also mean that the change was ordered in 1963 and the first production lots where given to the logistics system...but as nothing happened emediately the pointed boards will be word later on for shure.....much the same as with pointed boards with closed Lizten for the portepee-Uffz. The closed Litzen where invented in 1963, the same year the round boards where invented. So legaly these board should not exist. But I`ve seen several during the last years.....

Jens

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

I'm with Jens. Although what you suggest would work as tunics dated 1962 would have been undated to altsilber and 1963 boards at some point it would be good to leave your tunic as an example of how they probably looked in 1962 when it might have been issued.

Regards,

Gordon