Sandfarbe uniform discussion

[Collectinsteve]

I have been fascinated with the BW Sandfarbe uniforms since I first learned of their existence many years ago. I don't know why it is so interesting to me, but it is! I have bid ridiculous amounts of money to try and get more items, however someone usually has more money in their pockets than I do.

Below are my only three items. First is a 1963 jacket with pointed style epaulettes and junior NCO Dienstgrade on the arms (I put these on myself). The second is what appears to be a 1967 issue jacket with rounded style epaulettes. I will likely add Gefreiter or Obergefreiter metal badges to them soon. The last item is a side cap.







Note that I received both jackets (separately) without any badging, epaulettes, or buttons. I've added the missing pieces as best I know how. If anybody spots problems, please speak up so I can correct them!

Steve

[Asbjoern]

The sand coloured stuff of the 60ies is really hard to get, yes! Especially details as the shoulder boards are very rare as they where only worn for a very limited periode of time on a uniform only issued in a very limited number... while the tunic with the french cuffs was in use up to 1970 the sand coloured boards plus the headgear where only suitable within the periode from 1959 to 1963.

Up to now my only pre `70 tunic has no boards at all...my latest addition to this sector of interst is a really new item - a 1989 made uniform of a Oberst i.G.:



I´ll search my harddisk at home for some pictures of my older "sandy stuff"...

Jens

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Jens,

The Sandfarbe shoulder rank were only used through 1963? Pity... that means I'll have to remove my hard won rounded type from my 1967 jacket

Steve

[Asbjoern]

If I remember correct thats what Kunstwadl says...but don`t worry....nothing is impossible in the BW so someone wore them untill 1970...

Jens

[Asbjoern]

I took another look to the Kunstwadl... yes, since 1963 the standard grey shoulderboards should - according even to the ZDv - have been used on the sandcoloured uniforms. So rounded boards should not exist in that colour as they where invented just at this time ... but while writing this Kunswadl also shows a pair of boards in sandcoloured fabric. He describes them as private purchased and perhaps worn against the regulation...

Jens

[Gordon Craig]

I have been fascinated with the BW Sandfarbe uniforms since I first learned of their existence many years ago. I don't know why it is so interesting to me, but it is! I have bid ridiculous amounts of money to try and get more items, however someone usually has more money in their pockets than I do.

Below are my only three items. First is a 1963 jacket with pointed style epaulettes and junior NCO Dienstgrade on the arms (I put these on myself). The second is what appears to be a 1967 issue jacket with rounded style epaulettes. I will likely add Gefreiter or Obergefreiter metal badges to them soon. The last item is a side cap.







Note that I received both jackets (separately) without any badging, epaulettes, or buttons. I've added the missing pieces as best I know how. If anybody spots problems, please speak up so I can correct them!

Steve

Steve,

If you ever take these Obergefrieter chevrons off you can always send them my way. I have a 1962 dated sandfarben tunic that had sleeve rank for an Obergefreiter UA removed before I got it and I have been trying to find sleeve rank chevrons for it for several years. I'll post my sabdfarben stuff later this week.

Regards,

Gordon

[Asbjoern]

Gordon, I thought you are looking for rank insignia with sandcoloured backing ? Or did I understand that incorrect ? The type steve has sewn to his tunic is the standard with grey backing...those are very well available and may go to canada with other stuff....

Regards,

Jens

[Collectinsteve]

Gordon and Jens,

As far as I know they did not bother to make a specific junior NCO rank badge for Sandfarbe. At least I've not seen them before and, frankly, it doesn't really make sense since the standard rank works fine.

I have quite a few spares for Heer Dienstanzug, Heer Feldanzug, and Marine Dienstanzug. Gordon, if you need a set of Obergefreiter I can send them your way. Unfortunately, all I have are unissued ones. But if your Sandfarbe jacket is in excellent condition nobody will know

Jens,

That's an interesting theory that the rounded type are private purchase. OK, so I will probably put some metal rank on it and "call it good".

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Gordon and Jens,

As far as I know they did not bother to make a specific junior NCO rank badge for Sandfarbe. At least I've not seen them before and, frankly, it doesn't really make sense since the standard rank works fine.

I have quite a few spares for Heer Dienstanzug, Heer Feldanzug, and Marine Dienstanzug. Gordon, if you need a set of Obergefreiter I can send them your way. Unfortunately, all I have are unissued ones. But if your Sandfarbe jacket is in excellent condition nobody will know

Jens,

That's an interesting theory that the rounded type are private purchase. OK, so I will probably put some metal rank on it and "call it good".

Steve

Jens,

Yes I was looking for the correct stripes for my sandfarben uniform. If I was confusing you I am sorry for that. I was looking for the post 1960 style stripes. The question here is "Did the Heer and the Lufwaffe wear the same stripes?". For example, did the Heer wear grey backed stripes and the Luftwaffe blue or did they both wear greay backed stripes on the sandfarben uniforms?

Regards,

Gordon

[markus]

I have one of the ones my Dad was issued before we moved to El Paso, Tx.

Nobody ever wore them though.

In the 60ies they were issued Pith helmets as well...

[Gordon Craig]

I have one of the ones my Dad was issued before we moved to El Paso, Tx.

Nobody ever wore them though.

In the 60ies they were issued Pith helmets as well...

markus,

Could you be a litl clearer please. What was he issued that he did not wear?

Regards,

Gordon

[speedytop]

Hi!

Gordon

Yes I was looking for the correct stripes for my sandfarben uniform. I was looking for the post 1960 style stripes.

You mean 1963?

The question here is "Did the Heer and the Lufwaffe wear the same stripes?"

Yes and no!

When I interpret all my sources proper, then all the three "Teilstreitkräfte" (armed forces) wear the same sand-coloured uniform from 1959 to 1963, Heer, Luftwaffe and Marine.
Since 1963 all the armed forces wear their own insignias, Heer in grey, Luftwaffe in grey-blue, Marine in blue.

My source in 1963 (Taschenbuch für Wehrfragen 1963/64), I think, direct before the change, say on page 463: "Der Sommeranzug, sandfarben, ist einheitlich für Heer, Luftwaffe und Marine."

"The summer suit, sand-coloured, is uniformly for army, air force and navy."

In my small collection I found one sand-coloured stripe for a "Hauptgefreiter":



But I don't know, is it really for the sand-coloured uniform 1959 to 1963? You can compare it here with a navy Hauptgefreiter on olive fabric:



Uwe

[Gordon Craig]

Uwe,

I was sure that last night I had found a reference in Kunswadl that there had been a change in the arm rank stripes worn on the sandfarben uniforms in 1960 but I couldn't find it today so I must have been mistaken.
There is no doubt that all three services wore the same sandfarben uniform. The only question I have been struggling with for some time is what buttons were worn on these uniforms. From period pictures it appears as though all three services wore the early dark bronze buttons when the sandfarben uniform was first introduced. At some unknown time the Heer and Luftwaffe adopted silver buttons and the Marine gold butons with an anchor on them. If anyone has some firm information on regulations in this area I would really like to see it in print here.
Your pictures of the different arm rank stripes are very interesting. I wish the ones on my tunic had not been removed. Once off the tunic it is often very difficult to determine exactly what uniform they came from. If special arm rank stripes were not produced for the sandfarben tunic I would suspect that the Heer and the Luftwaffe wore the same rank badges and it would be very possible for the Marine to wear different ones to distinguish them from the Heer and the Luftwaffe. I say this because period sandfarben uniform pictures indicate that the Marine did not wear collar tabs on the sandfarben uniforms. This follows the same pattern as the blue uniform which did not have collar tabs. Heer and Luftwaffe sandfarben uniforms are easily distinguished because of their individual collar tabs. Lots of research is still needed in this area.

Regards,

Gordon

[markus]

markus,

Could you be a litl clearer please. What was he issued that he did not wear?

Regards,

Gordon

Sorry Gordon, you are totally right. (I was playing with my 6 month old son when writing...)

My Dad was issued 3-5 sandcoloured tunics (as above), before moving to El Paso, Tx. in 1987. He was also issued the pants and maybe a Schiffchen, I don't recall. We moved back to Germany in 1990 and the items had to be returned.
I know that he never wore them, not on a single occasion.

He was an inspection chief (Captain) of the German ADA detachment in Ft.Bliss.

I kept somehow have one tunic in my collection still tough.

Buttons are silver.

Sorry for the earlier confusion.

[Collectinsteve]

I would like to start up a separate discussion about the early junior NCO arm rank. I have a bunch and wanted to make sure I knew exactly what they represented and what they were used for. I need to take pics of each type. I'm curious to see if there are other types that I'm unaware of. I have several Heer uniforms that have their original arm rank on them. This includes an Arbeitsanzug, 1st Model Moleskin, and a couple early 1960s Dienstjacke.

Gordon,

I'm sure that Kunstwadl says somewhere when the switch from bronze to silver buttons happened. From my own samples I'd say the change happened at the same time the double cuffs were dropped and the uniform went from the nice dark wool to the thin light gray type that was used for the 1970s and 1980s. Therefore the early Sandfarbe jackets should have the old style buttons as I've reconstructed on mine shown in this thread.

I don't know when Marine got their own distinctive gold buttons. I have a 1970s cotton Sandfarbe jacket and it's got quite a few distinct features that sets it apart from Heer. So it appears at some point they diverged, again probably around the time the double cuffed jackets were dropped.

Steve