Question about GJ Dienstanzug features

[Collectinsteve]

I have two different GJ tunics with the branch of service colors removed from the rank. I purchased one jacket about 20 years ago in the US and the other a few years ago directly from a German source. I've seen a few pictures of the jackets in use and they also seem to be lacking the colored piping. So my questions are this:

1. Is it true that the GJ, for whatever reason, removed the piping?

2. If so, what periods of time did they do this?

Oh, and OK... long shot:

3. Why did they do this?

My NCO's jacket also lacks the NCO cord around the collar. Everything else was present and I don't think anybody messed around with it because it came through a major wholesaler to the US (i.e. not some small shop or private hands). I'm wondering if perhaps the cord wasn't worn either?

Oh, and the same place I purchased the tunic 20 years ago also had BGS "Skijäger" type trousers overdyed black. They look pretty close to the ones GJ wear with their tunic. I was wondering if some soldier might have used these as a "Ersatzhosen" or if it was just a random coincidence that the two were in the same shop.

Any information would be greatly appreciated!

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

You have me somewhat baffled here by your question. Perhaps a picture would clear things up for me.

Regards,

Gordon

[Towarish]

Steve,

You have me somewhat baffled here by your question. Perhaps a picture would clear things up for me.

Regards,

Gordon

As Gordon said, I'd appreciate a photo as well.

Phil

[Klaus1989]

Every GJ Skibluse I have seen does not have piping, so it is probably safe to say they have not had piping for as long (or almost as long) as their service (start 1960s?). Even different Truppengattungen (Gebirgs-Panzer, Gebirgsfernmeldetruppe, etc.) in GJ units only displayed Waffenfarbe on Kragenspiegel, not shoulderboards.

I would guess, it is to make manufacture easier, although why only Skiblusen have no piping, no idea.

regards
Klaus

[Collectinsteve]

Thanks Klaus!

I don't think it made manufacturing easier since they were already being made with the colors on them. There must be a special reason why there is no piping on these tunics.

But thanks for confirming that this is a standard thing.

I'll take some pictures when I get the chance!

Steve

[SirHarry1]

GJ jackets

Steve,
Being an NCO in the German Army reserves myself I can only tell you that as to my knowledge the GJ never had the piping, thus they never had to remove it. Why? I have no clue but hey, we are talking about the army, right??

And regarding your question on the altgold NCO cord (Portepee) - if your tunic is for Unteroffizier or Stabsunteroffizier it is correct, the cord is worn as from Feldwebel. Thats why we call Feldwebel and above Portepee-Unteroffiziere.
However, I have seen a jacket of an Oberfeldwebel that lacked the cord, and he said he doesnt care whether it is applied or not!
Hope that helps a bit
Best
Harry
(E-6, currently on exercise with the Joint Army Medical Command)

I have two different GJ tunics with the branch of service colors removed from the rank. I purchased one jacket about 20 years ago in the US and the other a few years ago directly from a German source. I've seen a few pictures of the jackets in use and they also seem to be lacking the colored piping. So my questions are this:

1. Is it true that the GJ, for whatever reason, removed the piping?

2. If so, what periods of time did they do this?

Oh, and OK... long shot:

3. Why did they do this?

My NCO's jacket also lacks the NCO cord around the collar. Everything else was present and I don't think anybody messed around with it because it came through a major wholesaler to the US (i.e. not some small shop or private hands). I'm wondering if perhaps the cord wasn't worn either?

Oh, and the same place I purchased the tunic 20 years ago also had BGS "Skijäger" type trousers overdyed black. They look pretty close to the ones GJ wear with their tunic. I was wondering if some soldier might have used these as a "Ersatzhosen" or if it was just a random coincidence that the two were in the same shop.

Any information would be greatly appreciated!

Steve

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Harry,

Thanks for the answers! Always nice to have an "inside source"

The jacket I have is for an Oberstabfeldwebel, so it should have the Portepee.

If I bought this jacket from a collector I would suspect the rank was sewn onto the wrong jacket. Or that the Portepee was removed. But as I said below, this jacket came from a major wholesaler who wouldn't have put 2 seconds into making an alteration. I also down the original NCO removed the Portepee (my usual experience is either the uniform is completely stripped or is complete, not a mix). Plus, the rank doesn't have branch color on it, which is correct for the jacket.

Perhaps this is yet another act of rebellion by a GJ

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

There seems to be some confusion here as to the meaning of "Portepee". A "Portepee", in English refered to as a bayonet knot, has nothing to do with the tress worn by members of the German armed forces in the ranks of Unteroffiziere. There are two terms that have been historically used in the German armed forces. "Ohne Portepee", which refers to enlisted men up to the western military rank equivalent of corporal, who were not entitle to wear a "Portepee" on their bayonet with their ausganganzug and "mit Portepee" for those above this rank who were allowed to wear a "Portepee" on their bayonet when in walking out dress. Perhaps the confusion has arrisen because unteroffiziere have tress added to their rank insignia.
This gets me back to the problems I have with your original question. Just what is missing from the uniform you are refering to? Your original post referred to the dienstbluse. Below is a picture of three GJ in their service dress. What is missing from your uniform in reference to these tunics? If it is not these tunics you are referring perhaps it is the Bergbluse you have questions about?

Regards,

Gordon

[Hugh Zillmann old]

Hello Gordon,

Absolutely fascinating photograph!

The fellow to the right (a Feldjaeger, I believe) shows that interesting combination of uniform items that makes this hobby so much more fascinating than, say, stamp collecting. Clearly a Feldjaeger, but 'attached' to the GJ. Probably staff or Divisional HQ, going by the cording to the edelweiss sleeve patch.

The fellow to the left...could be GJ, but I'm not sure. I cannot detect the presence of the edelweiss sleeve patch. Is there text to go with the photograph which could enlighten us?

But the middle gent is just fascinating. I have never seen such an interesting piece of BW headgear. A beret witth an edelweiss abzeichen (as well as a corps badge). I'm going to go out on a limb here and opine that he was a GJ, but is now sporting the edelweiss as a form of traditions abzeichen.

Just amazing stuff!

Cheers,

Hugh

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Gordon,

Thanks for the clarification about terminology. Based on what Harry said it appeared that the use of "Portepee" has been extended to the cord around the collar for higher NCO ranks. Perhaps that's not official and instead BW slang?

Anyway, I'm away from home so I can't take a pic at the moment. However, that pic you posted is of the 4 pocket service jacket. I'm talking about the two pocket GJ specific jacket with the lace up sides. Is that still in service even? That picture you posted appears to be fairly recent.

In regards to what is missing from my two GJ service jackets, it is the branch of service coloring on the epaulette rank. There is none on either of them, despite collar tabs obviously being colored. So for example, green collar tabs and NO color on the shoulders.

In addition, I have a senior NCO's jacket (Oberstabsfeldwebel) that has no metallic cord around the collar. It should be there, but then again so should the colors on the epaulettes. So I was wondering if there was some reason why this was not present on this particular uniform since post-issue tampering doesn't seem to be likely. Harry said he saw an NCO that didn't have it on his tunic, probably similar to something like von Rundsted refusing to wear general officer's collar tabs. Or something like that

Steve

[Hugh Zillmann old]

Hello Steve,

Von Rundstedt didn't 'refuse to wear general officer's collar tabs'. Indeed, there are quite a few photographs of him wearing tunics with such tabs attached (although, after 1940, they were for Generalfeldmarschall rank).

Von Rundstedt (like a number of other senior generals) held honorary Colonel rank of a regiment. Thus, in some photographs, he wears collar tabs appropriate to an Infantry Oberst .

Cheers,

Hugh

[SirHarry1]

Hi there, me again,

To clarify the term portepee: One has to draw a line between theh old term before 1945 and the term used in the BW since the 50s.

Yes, in the old armies the word portepee referred to the knot worn on the sidearm.

Since the new army had no sidearms at all and they decided not to introduce the old collar tress of the WH, a distinction had to be found. The EM had no cord at all, the officers had silver, generals bright gold and NCOs as from Feldwebel got the so called "Altgold" or matt gold cord. Junior NCOs still have no cord - they are Uffz w/o portepee as stated earlier. And senior NCOs as from Feldwebel are called Uffz with portepee, they are supposed to wear the cord around the collar. I wear it on my dress uniform but as I said, there is always an exception to the rule.

Regarding the photo of the three Oberfähnriche, I saw that in the book of Kunstwadl about the uniforms and insignia of the BW, an outstanding work on this topic, highly recommended. The caption says, they are on a trip to Israel!! in a discussion with civilians.

The fellow on the right is a Feldjäger and he is assigned to the 1. GJD. Once he is transferred, the patch will be changed and he is not a GJ any more. As from what I know they would not call themselves a GJ unless they are really mountain qualified, GJ is a bit like a term of honor. Note: Just the fact that you are assigned to a GJ unit does not automatically make you one!

The one on the left cannot be identified since you can´t see the patch.
The one in the middle is a guy who was assigned to a Panzergrenadier unit within the 1.GJD. Wearing the Edelweiss on the beret was, to my knowledge, officially allowed, I also saw guys with black Panzer berets wearing the Edelweiss, they were assigned to an armor unit within the 1. GJD.

Now for the piping of the shoulder straps. On the 4 pocket service tunic all soldiers wear the piping, also the GJ units.
Only on the two pocket Bergbluse or mountain blouse they have the shoulder straps without the piping, only with collar tabs in BOS color. As I said, I have no clue why it is so but I know it is so. Perhaps I can find out.

I guess that covers all the questions, but I am interested to see how this thread continues.

Harry

Hi Gordon,

Thanks for the clarification about terminology. Based on what Harry said it appeared that the use of "Portepee" has been extended to the cord around the collar for higher NCO ranks. Perhaps that's not official and instead BW slang?

Anyway, I'm away from home so I can't take a pic at the moment. However, that pic you posted is of the 4 pocket service jacket. I'm talking about the two pocket GJ specific jacket with the lace up sides. Is that still in service even? That picture you posted appears to be fairly recent.

In regards to what is missing from my two GJ service jackets, it is the branch of service coloring on the epaulette rank. There is none on either of them, despite collar tabs obviously being colored. So for example, green collar tabs and NO color on the shoulders.

In addition, I have a senior NCO's jacket (Oberstabsfeldwebel) that has no metallic cord around the collar. It should be there, but then again so should the colors on the epaulettes. So I was wondering if there was some reason why this was not present on this particular uniform since post-issue tampering doesn't seem to be likely. Harry said he saw an NCO that didn't have it on his tunic, probably similar to something like von Rundsted refusing to wear general officer's collar tabs. Or something like that

Steve

[Towarish]

The fellow on the right is a Feldjäger and he is assigned to the 1. GJD. Once he is transferred, the patch will be changed and he is not a GJ any more. As from what I know they would not call themselves a GJ unless they are really mountain qualified, GJ is a bit like a term of honor. Note: Just the fact that you are assigned to a GJ unit does not automatically make you one!

The one on the left cannot be identified since you can´t see the patch.
The one in the middle is a guy who was assigned to a Panzergrenadier unit within the 1.GJD. Wearing the Edelweiss on the beret was, to my knowledge, officially allowed, I also saw guys with black Panzer berets wearing the Edelweiss, they were assigned to an armor unit within the 1. GJD.

Although the 1.Geb.Div. was disband in 2001 members of FJg.Btl. 760 (which was assinged to the 1.Geb.Div.) worn their Edelweiß till 2004.

I'd say the chap in the middle is Geb.Pz.Jg.

Members of the Geb.Pz.Aufkl.Btl. 8 (Now Aufkl.Btl. 8) in Freyung worn the Edelweiß on their beret. I don't know if they still do it.

Anyway its regulated in the ZdV 37/10 who is allowed to wear the Edelweiß.

Cheers,
Phil

[Collectinsteve]

Harry,

Thanks for the further qualifications of the term portepee. Makes sense to me

OK, so it seems clear that my two GJ "ski blouse" tunics are correctly without colored branch of service on the ranks. I'm very glad to have confirmation of this! Thanks.

As for my Oberstabsfeldwebel tunic without the metallic cord around the neck, it appears to not be a usual thing? So either the soldier removed it before it went into surplus or he was an unusual soldier who was breaking regulations (like the soldier you mentioned).

Hugh,

A remember a long time ago reading that von Rundstedt had an attitude about wearing the general officer's collar tabs. Perhaps my word "refused" was the wrong one, rather he had personal reasons for preferring to wear his honorary Colonel's collar tabs. He certainly was rarely photographed in anything but. I know a few others did this, but it definitely wasn't the norm.

There are other documented cases of officers or senior NCOs keeping some tie with their previous ranks. Some officers refused to wear higher grade tailored uniforms, others insisted on wearing full infantry battle kit instead of just a pistol. Etc. As with any large group of individuals, there will always be someone who decides to break with conventions

Steve

[Collectinsteve]

At long last... pics of my two tunics. First is the one I picked out of a mountain of surplus jackets, the second is one I won off of eBay. Note that neither have branch of service colors on the shoulder rank.

Steve