Wartime Pilot/Postwar Fliegerbluse

[Klaus1989]

We need to find period photos of this to clear it. I thought maybe regular tie because it looks too military for bow tie, but that means nothing of course.

Hugh, sorry about the misunderstanding. No offence taken.

regards
Klaus

[speedytop]

We must differentiate.

The new uniform in 1963 "Zweitaschenrock mit Fangschnur" must be worn in the Heer with a black long tie, in the Luftwaffe and in the Marine with a black bow tie.

The "Gesellschaftsunform" from 1973 must always be worn with a black bow tie.

Both always with a white shirt.


"It is possible that a blue shirt and regular tie or a white shirt and a bow could have been worn."

Blue shirt and regular long tie (Heer anthrazitfarben, Luftwaffe blau) = Dienstanzug or Ausgehanzug. The Ausgehanzug could be worn with a white shirt.


Uwe

[Gordon Craig]

uwe,

Thanks for your comments. This was my understanding of how the different services wore the first Gesellschaftsanzug. Never any doubt about the second Gesellschaftanzug as I obtained a complete uniform a few years ago from a BW Luftwaffe Colonel serving in the U.S.

Regards,

Gordon

[SprogCollector]

Any opinions on the lack of cuff titles on the jacket which began this thread? The other two which I've seen both had the cuff titles whereas this one doesn't. The Kunstwadl example also has them.

[Gordon Craig]

Sprogcollector,

This jacket should have cuffbands on each arm. This, some observations made in this thread by other forum members, plus some things I find a problem with on this uniform make me doubt that it was made like this by the previous BW Luftwaffe owner.

Regards,

Gordon

[SprogCollector]

Sprogcollector,

This jacket should have cuffbands on each arm.
Gordon

So potentially an unissued piece being used to display 57er awards? If so, addition of the cuffbands and missing EK1 will still result in a nice display piece.

[Rick C]

Dumb question - what cuff titles should be present? Any photos?

Rick C.

[SprogCollector]

Dumb question - what cuff titles should be present? Any photos?

Rick C.

Rick,
They would look like these -- worn at each wrist.


Here's the jacket in the Kunstwadl book


All: I'm now a bit confused as I found this General's Gesellschaftanzug on another thread and it does NOT have the cuff titles. In my experience, it's now 3 jackets with them (2 in person and 1 via Kunstwadls book) and 2 without -- all officer jackets. I can't recall when the cuffbands were phased out. Presuming the first pattern gesellschaftanzug remained in use for some period after the 1973 introduction of the new/current pattern, did these potentially overlap with the timeframe when the cuffbands were done away with?

Note the wear of ribbons rather than the full-sized awards.



photo credit to DougO via this thread:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=371129

[Gordon Craig]

Sprogcollector,

It is very likely that there was a wear out period for the first type of Gesellschaftsanzug. Especially as it was a private purchase item. The cuffbands shown in your photo were discontinued for wear by the Luftwaffe in 1973. I feel that it is unlikely that a person authorized to wear WWII awards would still be in the service in the mid 70s. Not impossible but unlikely. That is why I think this particular jacket should have cuffbands. The cuffbands were to be worn 12cm from the end of the sleeve. The ends were not sewn into the seam as they were with war time tunics and in the DDR.
As for the generals tunic you posted with the ribbon bars, not really something we can use as an example. They could have been added at anytime. I don' have a copy of uniform regulations that say what is to be worn on these jackets; ribbon bars or medal bars. I suspect that only medal bars would be worn with this form of dress. Perhaps Uwe can help us here.

Regards,

Gordon

[SprogCollector]

Gordon,
I don't think it would be a stretch for former Wehrmacht soldiers to be serving in the Bundeswehr well into the late 1970s.

I'm not sure of the exact requirements for retirement in the Bundeswehr but I suspect something on the order of 30 years service. Given the 10 year gap between dissolution of the Wehrmacht and creation of the Bundeswehr, it could take quite a while to meet the retirement criteria.

Gunther Rall (Luftwaffe) served from 1936-45 and then from 1956 until retirement in 1975. Fellow wartime Luftwaffe pilot, Walter Krupinski, also served in the Bundesluftwaffe and was "forced into early retirement" in 1976.

To achieve the same years of service, a junior officer serving from 1943-45 in the Wehrmacht would then serve another 27 years in the Bundeswehr to hit the same total time. This person could, in theory, be still serving in 1983 or later.

Chris

[speedytop]

It is a little bit difficult for me, to explain all that in English.

On the "normal" dress, Dienstanzug and Ausgehanzug, generally the ribbon bar could be worn, even at the dress uniform as the dress suit.
It could be worn, but it must not be worn.

The medal bar and original crosses could be worn on the Dienstanzug, Ausgehanzug and the "Zweitaschenrock" only in very special "official" and "social" events with approval of the minister or the appointed authorities (minimum divisional commander).

"zu besonderen dienstlichen oder gesellschaftlichen Anlässen mit Genehmigung des Bundesesministers der Verteidigung oder der von ihm beauftragten Stellen"


The cuff titles had to be worn on the Zweitaschenrock.
If not, no one would shoot down a colonel or a general.
Theoretically it could be in the time, where the new 'black' uniform came in, and the colonel/general don't want to buy the new uniform in his last years. And because the new uniform was without the cuff titles, he don't wear cuff titles on his Zweitaschenrock.
Colonel/General, because it is a "mitbeförderte" (promoted) jacket, first Colonel, than General, see the different coloured (and later added) shoulder boards.


It is not the service time, it is the age. A NCO or a captain retire in the age of 52/53/54 (it changed), a full colonel with 58/59/60, a general in the age of 60 or later.

Uwe

[SprogCollector]

Hi Uwe,
Thanks for the additional information. I hadn't thought of a military career in terms of age. Here in the US, it's always been a matter of length of service -- minimum of 20 years and a maximum of 33 years.

To use the age criteria, here would be some supporting examples:

Gunther Rall was born in 1918 and retired as a General officer in 1975 -- aged 57

Walter Krupinski was born in 1922 and retired as a Colonel in 1976 -- aged 54

Presuming the youngest Bundeswehr soldier to see service in WW2 was born in 1926 (19 at the end of WW2), their respective retirement years would be as late as:
1980 for an NCO or Captain
or
1986 for a full Colonel and even later for a General.

Using Uwe's age model, the bulk of former Wehrmacht men would probably be retiring throughout the 1960s and 1970s

[speedytop]

Hi SprogCollector,

both, Rall and Krupinski, retired earlier, because they had (political) problems with the Bundeswehr authorities, especially Krupinski with the Rudel scandal, "... he was forced into early retirement."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Krupinski

These were political decisions.

Uwe

[SprogCollector]

Hi Uwe,
Thanks. Yes, I'm aware of the issues surrounding the earlier-than-usual retirements of some former Wehrmacht officers. The more important point to be made is that using your age models, former Wehrmacht soldiers could have theoretically been still in service as late as the early 1980s.

Given this possibility, along with the fact that in the early years older style uniforms were updated by the addition of badging (adding collar tabs to the Affenjacke, for example), would it be equally possible that some regulation dictating removal of cuffbands on the first-pattern Zweitaschenjacken could be the reason for these jackets being seen without them?

I maintain the opinion that the cuffbands were supposed to be there. Even if some order specified their removal, I would think traces of the cuffband would remain.