Wartime Pilot/Postwar Fliegerbluse

[Rick C]

Hi folks,

First, I noticed a label (not sure how I missed it before). Below. Clueless as to if this is the maker or owner's initials.

Second, Those caps Klaus linked to appear just what I want. This site's in German. I don't read or understand much in that regard. Is 'Stephan' one of you guys? If so can you drop me a note (rc@phoenixpwb.com), give me a price in our defunct Dollars that I might paypal you and let me know if the difference in colors on those caps is in the flash/photo or if there's really a reason for the color shift? This one looks best: "Schirmmütze, Leutnant, schmaler handgestickter Rand auf dem Schirm, Grösse 59, neuwertig"

Third, shirt & tie: Does Stephan have those as well?

Thanx guys, I very much appreciate your comments & suggestions! Rick C.

[Rick C]

Another question: Is there any way to figure out 'who' this may have belonged to based upon the period of the uniform, the guy's rank & the guy's (apparent) wartime awards?

Rick C.

[RamJet]

KKB means Kleiderkasse der Bundeswehr at Koblenz, the main outfitter for the German Armed Forces. Still existing today, but under another name I always forget.

Concerning the tunic: I wonder if all the awards are really placed on it by the owner itself, as there is a mistake: Everyone who won the German Cross must have won the Iron Cross 1st class first. But the tunic only shows the Iron Cross 2nd class. Doesn't make sense for a German Cross winner.

[Rick C]

Yes, I think the EK1 was originally where the Pilot Badge is (loops) which, I think, is the right position for it. Below the current placement of the PB and to the right are two holes where, it appears, the Pilot was pinned through the tunic (no loops). Perhaps (mere speculation) the guy kept his EK1 and let everything else go.

[Klaus1989]

Hi folks,

First, I noticed a label (not sure how I missed it before). Below. Clueless as to if this is the maker or owner's initials.

Second, Those caps Klaus linked to appear just what I want. This site's in German. I don't read or understand much in that regard. Is 'Stephan' one of you guys? If so can you drop me a note (rc@phoenixpwb.com), give me a price in our defunct Dollars that I might paypal you and let me know if the difference in colors on those caps is in the flash/photo or if there's really a reason for the color shift? This one looks best: "Schirmmütze, Leutnant, schmaler handgestickter Rand auf dem Schirm, Grösse 59, neuwertig"

Third, shirt & tie: Does Stephan have those as well?

Thanx guys, I very much appreciate your comments & suggestions! Rick C.

Stephan is a dealer in Germany. I have dealt with him before and he is good. His homepage is www.stephan.de and is also in (not so good) English if you do not read German. Try search catalog and choose category "Bundeswehr:Lutftwaffe".

regards
Klaus

[Gordon Craig]

Rick,

I would not worry about the shade of blue in the visor cap that you buy. I do not subscribe to the theory that there was ever an intentional change in the shade of blue in the material used in BW Luftwaffe uniforms. You will find many different shades of blue. There were differences in dye lots, the cloth used by different manufacturers, fading over time etc. What you should be looking for is a visor cap with a date close to that of the time frame of your uniform. IE sometime between 1963 and 1973. Probably on the earlier time frame. Also, if you want a cap worn with this uniform you probably only need a visor cap. It is extremely unlikely that a side cap would ever be worn with the gesellschaftsanzug. Since you don't understand German perhaps it is time to explain a little bit about this uniform. In German it is also refered to as a "Festival" jacket. It would only have been worn for special occassions. As far as I know, it was a private purchase piece and not a jacket that everyone would be issued with. It was approved for wear by Unteroffizieren and Offizieren in August of 1962. It would have been worn with a white shirt and a black bow tie.
There was a major uniform and rank insignia change in 1962 and this uniform was one of the new ones authorized for wear.
Here are a few photos of a hat from my collection for your reference.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

A side view.

[Gordon Craig]

Interior showing the sweat shield and makers markings. You will note that this visor cap was made in 1969.

[Hugh Zillmann old]

Hello Folks,

Stephan's English is quite good and he is easy to communicate with (in my experience) via email. If I recall correctly, his daughter usually handles that side of the business.

He takes Paypal and ships quickly. He's also good at 'sourcing' things, provided you can give him fairly clear (and relatively precise) instructions as to what it is you want.

Hope this helps. Good luck with the 'hunt' Phoenixpwb!

All the best,

Hugh

P.S. Also agree with Gordon (who was posting while I was posting), the schiffchen would not be part of this 'order' of dress. The schirm is definately the way to go and, again, Gordon is right, colour variation was not necessarily linked to any change in orders of dress.

[Gordon Craig]

Hi folks,

First, I noticed a label (not sure how I missed it before). Below. Clueless as to if this is the maker or owner's initials.

Second, Those caps Klaus linked to appear just what I want. This site's in German. I don't read or understand much in that regard. Is 'Stephan' one of you guys? If so can you drop me a note (rc@phoenixpwb.com), give me a price in our defunct Dollars that I might paypal you and let me know if the difference in colors on those caps is in the flash/photo or if there's really a reason for the color shift? This one looks best: "Schirmmütze, Leutnant, schmaler handgestickter Rand auf dem Schirm, Grösse 59, neuwertig"

Third, shirt & tie: Does Stephan have those as well?

Thanx guys, I very much appreciate your comments & suggestions! Rick C.

Rick,

If you turn the breast pocket where the label is inside out you will probably find the tunic size markings stamped on the pocket lining.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

Hi Gordon,

Welcome home!

I'm with Chris on the label. It's got all the hallmarks of a cap label.

The curious thing for me is the absence of any labels on the tunic and trousers. This leads me to suspect that they were privately tailored and the labels have been removed to 'protect' the anonymity of the original owner. After all, his name would/should have been affixed in the tailoring process.

Phoenixpwb, have a close look for perforations on any internal pockets of the tunic and in and around the waist-band of the trousers. These are always the sites for tailor's labels. Also, if you are interested, Stephan has a very nice schirm and sidecap for BLW offizier on his site at the moment (I think the schirm is Euro35 and the side-cap somewhat less). They are both 'early', so would be around the timeframe of your uniform.

Regards to all,

Hugh

P.S. Gordon, I'm tracking another Bergfuhrer abzeichen, so please don't outbid me!

Hugh,

I haven't looked at Austrian stuff for some time. Too busy rebuilding my house and especially the rooms I keep my collection in. Good luck in the auction for the Bergfuhrerabzeichen.

Regards,

Gordon

[Klaus1989]

It would have been worn with a white shirt and a black bow tie.

I thought they wore this with regular tie. There was photo here somewhere on WAF of Heer officer with this uniform and regular tie. Bow tie is for 1970s-present dinner jacket style uniform.

Hugh Zillmann, I never said Stephan's English was bad (not know if it was or not). The English website was because it appear to use translation machine.

regards
Klaus

[Gordon Craig]

Klaus,

In Kunswadl's book he shows a Heer officer wearing a white shirt and a regular tie and the Luftwaffe and Marine wearing a bow tie. I don't know if this is regulation wear as all the pictures appear to be posed ones. It would seem to be more logical if this jacket were to be worn for a formal occassion that a white shirt and a black bow tie would be more appropriate. As you say, the current gesellschaftanzug is worn with a white shirt and a black bow tie. It is also a special shirt with hidden buttons. A black cummerbun is also worn with the current gesellschaftanzug. That doesn't mean that a bow tie could not have been worn with an earlier form of dress. I'll have to look at the regs and see if there is anything mentioned in them about this. I'll let you know what I find.

Regards,

Gordon

[Hugh Zillmann old]

I thought they wore this with regular tie. There was photo here somewhere on WAF of Heer officer with this uniform and regular tie. Bow tie is for 1970s-present dinner jacket style uniform.

Hugh Zillmann, I never said Stephan's English was bad (not know if it was or not). The English website was because it appear to use translation machine.

regards
Klaus

Klaus,

Noted.

No criticism or offence intended. Hopefully none taken.

Regards,

Hugh

[Gordon Craig]

Klaus,

I was not able to locate a set of uniform regulations for the time period when this uniform was worn. Our best reference for this uniform is Kunstwadl's book "Von Affenjacke zum Tropentarnanzug". He does not mention anything about what colour of shirt was worn or what tie was to be worn with the first Gesellschaftsanzug. In the absence of any supporting material I will have to modify my statement about which colour shirt and tie was worn with this uniform. It is possible that a blue shirt and regular tie or a white shirt and a bow could have been worn. Kunstwadl's only statement that would be applicable to the luftwaffe and Marine pictures in his book showing a white shirt and bow tie being worn would be "With official and private social meetings, with which for the civilian participants Frack or tuxedo was desired, the officers put on a matte-silver catch cord, which had been likewise again introduced." It would be reasonable to assume that if civilians were wearing a tuxedo that the members of the military who were present at this event would wear a white shirt and a black bow tie.
It would be nice to know what was commonly done, regardless of the regulations, as that is always the true test of what was worn.

Regards,

Gordon