Bundeswehr Marine uniforms

[Gordon Craig]

Here are a couple of pictures from Kunswadl's book. In the first one, he illustartes an orange flight suit for wear over water. In the second picture he identifies the orange fight suits in wear as a MK10 "Frankenstein" suits. The second suit would appear to be a better one to wear over water than the first one in case of a crash. The suit illustarted may indeed have been called a "Frankenstein" suit but I am not convinced until I have done more research. Anyone else have any knowledge in this area?

Regards,

Gordon

[Gene T]

Early greatcoat?

What do you guys make of this?

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...771018293.html


It looks virtually identical to a KM coat save for the markings. I don't see it in Hormann's book or among the trial uniforms shown in those 1955 photos. Perhaps it's pre-BW?

I saved the photos from the eBay listing for future reference:





Gene T

[Gordon Craig]

Gene T,

I've studies these pictures and compared them to my reference material and have found nothing like it for BRD use. The stamp in the coat looks good but the buttons supplied with the coat are not the correct ones. They are tunic buttons and I doubt very much if the coat could be buttoned up with this type of button in place. Great coat buttons need a much longer shank than the ones shown here. The buttons also appear to be of a later vintage than the stamp in the coat. I've been studying buttons for some time, especially the Marine ones, to try and get a feel for time period of use etc. So far, any relatively precise data has eluded me. It is a great looking coat and I would dearly love to be able to establish who wore it. Thanks for posting the pictures. Perhaps someone else can shed some light on it.

Regards,

Gordon

[PASSAUER8884]

Merchant Marine perhaps?

[Gordon Craig]

PASSAUER8884,

Thanks for the suggestion but I doubt it. Merchant Marine uniforms are privately made and do not normally bear any BW type stamps like the one in this coat.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gene T]

Thanks for the input!

If this hadn't been one of those "Versand nach Deutschland" only listings, I would have tried to get this coat for a closer look. It went for relatively cheap, I think.

Actually, I looked at the original listing again just now, and noticed that the seller clearly described this as a BGS See (Seegrenzschutz) coat. Evidently I didn't bother to read the listing after I realized that I couldn't bid on the coat, and simply saved it in my watch list, and didn't notice it again until I was purging my list yesterday (and I still didn't read it before posting it here!). I should have paid more attention to the text description instead of focusing only on these pictures! The answer was there in front of my eyes all along.

That said, there really isn't a whole lot of information out there about the uniforms of the Seegrenzschutz. This is the first coat of its kind that I've come across.


Gene T

[Gordon Craig]

Gene T,

Saying it is a BGS See coat doesn't make it one. The auction was sent to me by another forum member and I was aware of the BGS listing at that time. I have never seen anything like this for the BGS or the for the BW Marine. Way too many buttons on the front and the back. I would have bought it as well just to have a look at it but shipping would have been expensive. I am a long way from convinced that this was a BGS coat.
The markings, if they are legitimate, are Bundeswehr in design and not even close to being BGS. The BGS See was absorbed by the BW Marine when it was established.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gene T]

You are right of course, Gordon, the seller can certainly be mistaken. I also defer to your knowledge on the significance of the markings, as I am not lucky enough to have any BGS item of that period to use for comparison.

The reason I was willing to go along with the vendor's explanation was that this coat looks almost identical to a Kriegsmarine greatcoat, seen for example in this recent Gunbroker listing:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=216744168


Given that the BGS was evidently far less reticent about recycling TR era uniform features than the BW, I took it for granted that the early Seegrenzschutz would have experienced little or no resistance in issuing an essentially de-nazified KM uniform to its ranks, if for no other reason than basic expediency, especially since most naval uniforms are blessed with that certain "universal" quality to them, which renders them highly immune to national politics and passing fads.

Regardless, this is an interesting piece to study. One would have to go all the way back to 1915 to find a Heer officer's greatcoat with that kind of frivolously decorative details in the back. Somehow traditions and sartorial tastes just don't evolve as much or as quickly in naval services.


Gene T

[SprogCollector]

When was the Minensuchdienst closed down? They wore an odd mix of KM and British naval items. While I doubt KM-pattern items remained in production, it's a remote possibility.

[Gordon Craig]

Sprogcollector,

The Minensuchdienst wore their Kriegsmarine uniforms for a while then a new uniform was designed and issued as you mentioned. Nothing anywhere near as fancy as this coat. I've had a thread ready to go on the Minensuchdienst for some time. I must dust it off and start the thread.

Regards,

Gordon

[uscob]

Sprogcollector,

The Minensuchdienst wore their Kriegsmarine uniforms for a while then a new uniform was designed and issued as you mentioned. Nothing anywhere near as fancy as this coat. I've had a thread ready to go on the Minensuchdienst for some time. I must dust it off and start the thread.

Regards,

Gordon

Gordon,
you're right. A close friends Dad in Kiel was at that Service after the War ( in 45) and he had to go to a Brit. Court because of sinking a British Patrol Boat I think to Remember in the Förde while on Search for mines, so they didn't had a chance to stop or change course and on 3 Alert Calls they didn't reacted and said the Krauts have to move and not the brit. Boat. The Court released them the same day as they said the Search boat was right and had the higher priority. They all were allowed to wear also their Insignia, just with swastikas removed.

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

Instead of trying to prove this is not a BGS See coat, I thought that I would try a different track and see if I could satisfy myself as to what it really is. I think that we have been too wrapped up in the fact that the vendor called it BGS See when he probably has no idea what it is. BGS always draws lots of interest.
After studying what Schuster's book says about early BW unidforms and studying my own early BW tunics I have proved to myself that the stamp in the coat is authentic for something produced during the time the BW was busy designing new uniforms. In all likelyhood, it was a design that was never adopted. The back is far to ornate and costly to make to be acceptable. Here are some makers stamps from my BW uniforms from 1956 as examples. One is by the same company as the stamp in this coat and is virtually identical.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

Two more labels.

[Forseti]

The most recent Bordmutze resembles a baseball cap or perhaps more correctly the similar shaped cammouflage caps worn by the Heer and the Luftwaffe although the Heer and Luftwaffe caps do not have side flaps that fold down. I have been unable to obtain one of these caps so far so I will have to post a picture of one from Kunstwadl's book.

Hello!

Here Pictures of a Bordmütze first pattern.

P.S. @Gordon: you ve got e-mail

[Forseti]

Another Picture showing the pressbuttons of the flaps:

(P.S: Pressbuttons are marked: "Echt Prym". Must be WW2 *lol* (just kidding: But in fact they are marked: "Echt Prym". Prym still delivers much pressbuttons for Bundeswehr Equipment. Quality never changes...)