Leopard II

[Mike C]

Hi Gordon,

We have always had MBTs - ever since we deployed two armoured divisions and two independent armoured brigades into Europe in WW 2....albeit often in pretty limited numbers in the post-war period.

Here is an image of a Leopard C1 - replaced by the Leopard 2A6M...

Mike

[Mike G.]

Man, what a beauty! (Sorry Willi, I was refering to the tank...)

We hear so much about the East German Army's role as the true inheritors of all that was well and good in German military tradition, apparently due to their fondness of stone gray and the goose step.

But from my foxhole, the Bundeswehr past and present espouses the best of German military tradition by virtue of the following:
- The Leopard II Main Battle Tank, direct descendent of the Tiger and Panther - arguably the finest tank ever conceived of by mankind.
- The Marder Infantry Fighting Vehicle, which would in turn spawn development of the American Bradley and British Warrior.
- “Aufstragtaktik” – The mission type orders used in one form or another by every Western Army.

Getting back to the Leo 2, I think only prolonged use in hard combat will allow it to take and hold the "best of the best" title from the Abrams and Challenger (although they always kicked our butts in the "Boeslager", forgive my poor spelling, and the Canadian Army Cup shoot back in the 80s...)

What say you tankers, I know you're never shy about sharing your opinion about who's the best....

Thanks for the pictures Willi - TJ

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

I'm going to agree, but with a Caveat .....

Hands down, just from the perspective of what a Tank is and can do (minus the cost and upkeep); the M1A2 is the absolute ultimate Tank to have ever been created. But only a country such as the U.S. of A. could afford to build and continually service such a machine. It is also the most expensive Tank in both cost and service maintainability to have ever been deployed by a nation.

But having said that, a Russian T34/85 could knock-out a German King Tiger in WWII.

Consequently, If one were to assess all of the multitude of different virtues that go into what a Tank is and is meant to be, plus take into consideration production cost, ease of use and maintenance, as well as overall performance and kill ability; then hands down the Leopard II takes it.
Of that I am certain.
And I've been there and done that.

Cheers

[LuckyStrike23]

What say you tankers, I know you're never shy about sharing your opinion about who's the best....

Thanks for the pictures Willi - TJ

A difficult question for a tanker, because you normally know only your vehicle.
I served several years as a LeopardII commander, but I have absolutly no expierences with M1 Abrams or Merkava.....

I guess the same is true for M1 commanders - they will have very limited experiences with the Leo.

In the most publications the LeoII A6 is described as the best, but it depends always which criterias you establish.
On the Market here in europe the LeoII is mostly demanded (Sweden, Spain, Switzland, Greek), but as far as I know in other regions (gulf area) they prefer the M1A2.

Beside: I was really shocked when i saw the LeoII A6 for the first time. He was as slow as a Kingtiger on the battlefield. For a LeoII A4 man hard to get used to it.

[Guardian 5]

Hi Gordon,

We have always had MBTs - ever since we deployed two armoured divisions and two independent armoured brigades into Europe in WW 2....albeit often in pretty limited numbers in the post-war period.

Here is an image of a Leopard C1 - replaced by the Leopard 2A6M...

Mike

MikeC - Great pictures of the Leopards in action, especially of the Leo II with 'birdcage / slat' armor.

Given the lack of an armor threat in Afghanistan, I'm wondering why they were deployed - convoy escort? Conventional back-up in the event of intervention from Pakistan or Iran? The logistical and maintenance challenges must be daunting.

Ironically, on a different thread, the country who originally produced these magnificent beasts and their army are being taken to task for their lack of fighting spirit among other things. No one can question Canada's committment however, or their willingness to go where the fighting is hardest. For an in-depth look at the steep price Canada has paid for its participation in the War on Terror, I highly recommend Fifteen Days by Christie Blatchford.

Thanks for the great pictures - TJ

[Mike C]

Hi TJ,

Grateful for the kind words.

Look at the field behind the Leo C1 - that is a classic Afghan grape terrace with row after row of hard-baked dirt rises where the grape vines hang. It is also a perfect barrier to mounted and, to a degree, dismounted movement by infantry - but tanks can move here where LAVs cannot. The grape drying huts (also seen on the left of the picture) also offer a fairly solid defensive structure.

In August and September 2006, after the Canadians moved into Kandahar, they fought to clear what could best be described as a conventional battalion defensive position, held by hundreds of Taliban, in the two districts west of the city. THe Taliban were well dug in and had positioned hundreds of mines and IEDs on the approaches.

So - tanks did what they were designed to do in 1916...restoring tactical mobility to the battle space by breaching these barriers and using rollers and plows to prove tracks and routes while providing precise firepower to take out enemy positions.

The Taliban (those that survived) no longer attempt to stand and fight - so Canadian armour is currently used differently. The Danes, following their analysis of Canadian operations, deployed Leo IIs to their battlegroup as well.

Mike

[LuckyStrike23]

Given the lack of an armor threat in Afghanistan, I'm wondering why they were deployed - convoy escort? Conventional back-up in the event of intervention from Pakistan or Iran? The logistical and maintenance challenges must be daunting.

If you are able to understand German i can recommend the last "Das Schwarze Barett" No.41 (newspaper of Panzertruppe). There was a long report about canadian Leopards in Afghanistan written by Major Trevor Cadieu.

[Gordon Craig]

Mike,

Thanks for the explanation of how the Leopards are used in Afghanistan. I had intended to ask that question earlier but got involved in other things.

Regards,

Gordon

[Hugh Zillmann old]

Hello Gentlemen,

The Australian Army had Leopards in service until about 18 months ago. The Government is now offering them to museums around the country as static display items (like they did with the old centurians). A local "folk" museum (of which a friend of mine is curator of military exhibits) has put-in for one of these. I'll be interested to see how they go and, if they get it, to have a 'close-up' look at it.

They came into service in Australia just as I was going-out of service, so I never got a chance to see them operationally at close range.

Cheers,

Hugh

By the way, looking at the hair and 'face fungus', I assume that you, Michael, may be a 'contempoary of mine' (1960's - 70's vintage)?

[Gordon Craig]

Hugh,

Why don't you open a museum and apply for one? It would look good next to the type 81!

Regards,


Gordon

[Hugh Zillmann old]

Hi Gordon,

Thought did cross my mind......

The curator is also a VW/BW/ Anything German fan, hence putting-in for the Leopard. I think he has a plan to start a "Southern Chapter" of the Bundeswehr!

I'm told that a number of the Leopards acquired by the Aussie Army had, in fact, been used by the BW ( a used tank?). The reason for this revelation was the machine guns fitted were NATO calibre and "used"(?). In any event, it might be interesting to see whether there are any markings on the tank (assuming he can secure it) which reveal previous BW use.

Cheers,

Hugh

P.S. Nice to be back in this Forum and away from 'Collector's Corner'. At least here we don't have scammers trying to hock dodgy deals on BW uniforms and equipment....yet.

[Gordon Craig]

Hugh,

I would not be surprised to have it confirmed that the Aussie Leos were ex BW tanks. After 1989 the BW downsized quite a bit and a lot of tanks became surplus. I think the Dutch bought some. I wonder if there is a list some where of Leopard production serial numbers and where these tanks went from the factory and their eventual history. I wonder also if there is a forum in Germany dedicated to armoured vehicles which might deal with this subject?

Regards,

Gordon