What Foreign Qualification Badges and Awards can be worn on BW Uniforms

[SprogCollector]

Gordon,
I was thinking about your tunic yesterday and how the wings on it might have come to be. What if the owner (appears to be a colonel) was assigned to work on a USAF/NATO E-3 Sentry (AWACS). Would serving in that role qualify for award of the USAF Aircrew Wing? If so, and given that the choice of wings worn is limited to two, could this officer then have decided to wear the crew wing instead of the USAF pilot wing? Pure speculation here but, as you say, it seems the current wing has been there for a long time.

Chris

[RamJet]

Chris and Gordon,

that is most unlikely for the following reasons:

First: Actually one of the former JG 73 COs is with the NATO E-3A Component at Geilenkirchen, Oberst Reinhard Mack. He is the DDO (Dienstältester Deutscher Offizier - senior ranking German officer) there, as far as I remember. But on flying duty he works as a pilot, not as an operator in the tube. No aircrew wing, but a pilot wing.

Second: By leaving the wing You lose the right to wear the cuff band "Steinhoff". You only are allowed to wear it as long as You actually belong to JG 73 "S". And that is a regulation You really have to follow as the Luftwaffe is very serious with its traditional names.

So the tunic represent a time where the owner as a Colonel was the CO of JG 73 "S" (if the item wasn't "promoted" from LtCol or Major which is an easy thing), and that means the only possible combination is German (gold) pilot wing / USAF command pilot wing.

It is not said that this USAF wing sat on the place for a long time, only that a USAF wing of this shape was there. And the shape is the same of both types of wings ...

Unfortunately, I haven't got an answer from "Pitt" Hauser yet. I will inform You as soon as he mails back if thís was his tunic.

But let me also speculate a little. If the Special Forces Major really got the tunic from its former owner, perhaps the Luftwaffe officer removed the USAF wing as it is not so easy to get one in Germany and he wanted to keep it for another tunic. The Special Forces guy replaced it back in the US with a wing of the same shape, not exactly knowing the differences ... pure speculation, as I said.

May I say that it is great to have such an item where You really can follow the traces to find out the origins. A thing usually nearly impossible with the Luftwaffe WWII items I collect. I have a lot of fun here in this part of the forum.

Have a nice Sunday,
Steve

[Gene]

Completely off topic but when I was stationed at George AFB, we hosted the Luftwaffe's F-4 lead-in training unit in the the 20th TFTS. They flew F-4E's and not F-4F's, which had a nearly identical weapons control radar as the E except the transmitter for the AIM-7 missile guidance was replaced by ballast.

[Guardian 5]

A selection of foreign jump wings as woven on flecktarn fabric.

[Guardian 5]

More variations in color.

[Guardian 5]

The same wing; subdued and full color - British?

[Guardian 5]

U.S. Basic Parachutist wings shown with some French Wings.

[Guardian 5]

U.S. Marskmanship Badges. These are not worn on battle dress/fatigue uniforms in the U.S.

There are three levels of qualification; Expert (the highest), Sharpshooter, and Marksman. In the Bundeswehr, officers are not allowed to wear the equivalent shooting cord. In the U.S. Army, officers are authorized to wear shooting badges but seldom do. Marine officers do wear their shooting badges (different style) from generals on down.

Clockwise from the top: Machine-gun expert; rifle sharpshooter; Machine-gun and pistol expert.

[Guardian 5]

Rifle and pistol sharpshooter.

[Gordon Craig]

Completely off topic but when I was stationed at George AFB, we hosted the Luftwaffe's F-4 lead-in training unit in the the 20th TFTS. They flew F-4E's and not F-4F's, which had a nearly identical weapons control radar as the E except the transmitter for the AIM-7 missile guidance was replaced by ballast.

Gene,

According to all of the research I have done on the F4 in service in the BW Luftwaffe they bought 175 F4-Es. The BW Luftwaffe at first decided to buy the F4-F but later changed its mind and bought the F4-E which is an F4-F but slighly modified as you said in your post. Other research indicates that they later modified their F4-Es and in 1973 they were redesignated as F4-F. So I guess, we could call them either one, if we had the aircrafts history, and be correct about a certain airplane. Since this is second hand research I could be mistaken. Thanks for bringing up this point.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

Chris and Gordon,

that is most unlikely for the following reasons:

First: Actually one of the former JG 73 COs is with the NATO E-3A Component at Geilenkirchen, Oberst Reinhard Mack. He is the DDO (Dienstältester Deutscher Offizier - senior ranking German officer) there, as far as I remember. But on flying duty he works as a pilot, not as an operator in the tube. No aircrew wing, but a pilot wing.

Second: By leaving the wing You lose the right to wear the cuff band "Steinhoff". You only are allowed to wear it as long as You actually belong to JG 73 "S". And that is a regulation You really have to follow as the Luftwaffe is very serious with its traditional names.

So the tunic represent a time where the owner as a Colonel was the CO of JG 73 "S" (if the item wasn't "promoted" from LtCol or Major which is an easy thing), and that means the only possible combination is German (gold) pilot wing / USAF command pilot wing.

It is not said that this USAF wing sat on the place for a long time, only that a USAF wing of this shape was there. And the shape is the same of both types of wings ...

Unfortunately, I haven't got an answer from "Pitt" Hauser yet. I will inform You as soon as he mails back if thís was his tunic.

But let me also speculate a little. If the Special Forces Major really got the tunic from its former owner, perhaps the Luftwaffe officer removed the USAF wing as it is not so easy to get one in Germany and he wanted to keep it for another tunic. The Special Forces guy replaced it back in the US with a wing of the same shape, not exactly knowing the differences ... pure speculation, as I said.

May I say that it is great to have such an item where You really can follow the traces to find out the origins. A thing usually nearly impossible with the Luftwaffe WWII items I collect. I have a lot of fun here in this part of the forum.

Have a nice Sunday,
Steve

Steve,

Thanks for the lengthy explanation. Very much appreciated and your comments about the wings are more than likely correct. I bought a pilots tunic several years ago from the air arm of the BW Heer and it had the German wings but was missing the U.S. wings although there was clear indication below the German wings that a pair of U.S wings had been there previously. I put a new set of USAF wings there and they matched the markings perfectly.

Regards,

Gordon

[RamJet]

@ Gene & Gordon:

The Luftwaffe bought 88 RF-4E Recce-Phantoms in 1971/72 and 175 F-4Fs from 1973 to 1975 as tactical fighters. While the RFs were phased out in the beginning of the 90s, 110 of the F-4Fs underwent an upgrade under the ICE program from 1991 to 1996. The ICE (Improved Combat Efficiency) program included a new radar (the AN/APG-65), a new mission computer and AMRAAM capability. You can distinguish ICE F-4Fs by their light grey radoms from the old birds with the black radom.

Initially, the F-4F was a simplified F-4E not capable of shooting the AIM-7 Sparrow, but with a higher maneuverability due to the incorporation of leading edge slats.

Gene, You are right, at George AFB the lead-in training was conducted on F-4Es which additionally were purchased by the Luftwaffe. They were moved to Holloman AFB in 1992 and replaced by F-4Fs in the following time (one of this F-4Es now stands as a gate guard in front of our Eurofighter training squadron 2./JG 73 "S" at Laage AB, painted in standard F-4F camouflage).

2004 the German Phantom training in the USA ended. Every new pilot scheduled to fly the Phantom (it is expected to stay in Luftwaffe service until 2012) now undergoes conversion training at JG 71 "Richthofen" at Wittmund AB.

Here is a pic I did in 1996 of two F-4Fs of JG 71 "R" during a QRA flight:

[torstenbel]

since the NVA is considered a 'foreign army' by West Germany, are there any NVA-DDR awards being worn on Bundeswehr uniforms? Cheers, Torsten.

[RamJet]

since the NVA is considered a 'foreign army' by West Germany, are there any NVA-DDR awards being worn on Bundeswehr uniforms? Cheers, Torsten.

No.

[torstenbel]

ok, so none are practically being worn but are there any permitted to be worn theoretically? Cheers, Torsten.