What Foreign Qualification Badges and Awards can be worn on BW Uniforms

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

On the thread I started on the MiG 29 in the BW Luftwaffe Steve asked a very interesting question about the USAF wings worn on the BW Luftwaffe tunic I posted. Up unitl that point I had never done any research on USAF wings. I was obviously remiss in this point because what is worn on a BW uniform has many ramifications and we need to understand what could correctly be worn and what could not.
I am going to repost my uniform with a clearer picture of the USAF wings to start off the discussion.

[Gordon Craig]

Now, a closer view of the USAF wings.

[Gordon Craig]

Now for the questions. I suspect that we will need people who know the USAF regs as well as the BW Luftwaffe regs to correctly answer these questions.
1-Steve said he thought the wings shown on this uniform, as pictured above, were for a WSO (Weapons System Officer) and that wings that should have been worn would have been for a USAF Command Pilot. The reference material that I found that seems to be the most comprehensive, and remember here I am a complete novice in this area, refers to these wings as for an "Aircrew Badge (officer)" whatever that means. Are these wings worn in the USAF by someone qualified as a WSOs?
2-I would not find it unusual for a WSO to also be qualified as a pilot and hence be qualified to wear both types of qualification badges. Would that be true in the BW Luftwaffe?
3-How would a BW Luftwaffe pilot qualify for the different levels of a USAF pilots badge? IE Pilot, Senior Pilot, and Command Pilot. According to the info I have found on line for the USAF they are as follows;

"The following additional criteria are required to be rated as a USAF pilot:[8]

Command Pilot*

Baisc Requirement; 15 years as rated pilot, and
*Permanent award of senior pilot rating, and Flight Time of 3000 total hours, or Alternative Flight Time *2300 hours primary and instructor flight, or
*144 months Operational Flying Duty (OFDA)

Senior Pilot*7 years as rated pilot, and
*Permanent award of pilot rating, and flight time of 2000 total hours, or1300 hours primary and instructor flight

Pilot*Graduate of USAF pilot training program, or
*Graduate of other US military pilot training if ordered by USAF, or
*Graduate of other US military pilot training if equivalent to USAF program, or

*Graduate of helicopter training in other US military and 200 hours primary and instrument flight

200 hours in rotary flight time and instrument qualification

All comments are welcome and once we have sorted out these particular badges perhaps we can move on to other US military badges that are authorized for wear on BW uniforms.

Regards,

Gordon

[SprogCollector]

Gordon:
Unless things have changed semi-recently, the USAF Aircrew Wing is worn by non-rated officers performing inflight duties (AWACS crew, WSO, etc). It would be extremely unlikely that a rated pilot (pilots and navigators are rated) would opt to wear this wing, if qualified to do so.

Wings exchanges between militaries is pretty common. I qualified for BW pilot wings (and Heer pilots were awarded US Army wings) after several exchange flights. I also qualified for the BW marksmanship award after a day at the range.

[RamJet]

From the close-up I can see now that it is not a WSO (navigator) wing. I do not know the aircrew badge as on German Luftwaffe uniforms in jet units You only encounter the pilot and the navigator/WSO wing.

Don't know the exact requirements, should be the same for Luftwaffe as for USAF personnel regarding the US wings.

It is only allowed to wear two Tätigkeitsabzeichen (profession badges) on the German uniform. Usually for flying personnel the German and the US wing (or for Navy helo pilots the RN wing at the cuff). Of course, when You are both a qualified WSO and a pilot, You can wear both wings, but that was it. No further badge allowed. But there are very few jet people who are qualified for both, actually their is only one still in active service I know: a former F-4F WSO who underwent pilot training in the beginning of the 90s (?) and later became squadron and then flying group CO at JG 73 "S".

[Gordon Craig]

Chris and Steve,

Interesting responses and they need some more comments because you seem to say different things.

Chris,

You say that the USAF Aircrew Wings were worn by flight crew other than Pilots and Navigators IE Weapons Systems Officers, which seems logical and confirms what I have already found in my research. Steve says the wings on my uniform were for a Navigator and not a WSO. Seems to be a contradiction here. When referring to a WSO I think of the guy in the back seat of an F4F. Would each of you please explain what you mean, in your respective services, by the term Navigator and WSO. What type of aircraft would he fly in and what would his in-flight tasks be?

Thanks for the comments on what you had to do to qualify for the BW Marksman's badge. What would a member of the BW have to do to qualify for the U.S. military Marksman Badge. I am using a generic term here as I know there are hangers for different types of weapons qualification.

Regards,

Gordon

[RamJet]

Gordo,

German WSOs wear the so-called "navigator wing" of the USAF. See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_For...utical_Ratings

Have a nice evening,
Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

Thanks. I visited that wiki article earleir today. Interesting that you say a BW Luftwaffe WSO wears a USAF Navigators wings. Seems to me they are two entirely different fields but since you say so I am willing to take your word for it.
I took a longer look at the wiki article and spent more time reading up on the qualifications for each wing. I would still appreciate it if someone could answer my second question. What the does the guy in the back seat of a BW Luftwaffe F4F Phantom do? I always understood his/her job to be ECM and weapons systems. If I am correct, that doesn't sound like the place for a trained navigator. Just trying to understand who, and why, someone would wear a specific USAF wing on their BW uniforms.
EDIT-I have just answered my own question to a certain degree. The guy in the back seat of a USAF F4 Phantom is a Navigator. He may have additional tasks but it would appear from what I just read that his/her basic duties are that of a navigator. I can go to bed happy now!!!!

Regards,

Gordon

[RamJet]

Gordo,

the man in the backseat performs a variety of tasks, from navigating over operating ECM/weapons/radio etc. equipment to radar intercept, depending on the type of aircraft.

German WSOs are trained in the US (like the pilots) and therefore qualify for both the respective German and US wing, that's the whole secret.

Have a good night,
Steve

[SprogCollector]

I guess my next question will sound rather silly. In Gordon's original post, the Luftwaffe uniform shown is displaying a BW pilot wing, correct?

While I understand that GAF pilots and navs are trained in the US and therefore eligible for the respective USAF wings, I'm confused in that Gordon's uniform seems to be a Luftwaffe pilot wing and USAF non-rated aircrew wing -- two different badges for entirely different categories of roles.

I was under the impression that a Luftwaffe navigator or other aircrew woudl wear a badge other than the one shown???

[Gordon Craig]

Chris,

You are 100% correct and that is what started this somewhat lengthy discussion between myself and Steve. He said earlier that as a uniform for a pilot with Luftwaffe wings it should have USAF Command Pilot wings. What I have been trying to work out since that comment was what other USAF wings could we realistically expect to see on a BW Luftwaffe pilots uniform. I think with Steve's last post, just above yours, we have established that USAF pilots wings would probably be the only ones that should be worn. I say "probably" because I never rule out any possibility. Too many times I've seen collectors remove insignia etc from uniforms because they thought they should not be there only to find out later that they did.

Steve,

I knew that a lot of BW Luftwaffe aircrew training takes place in the U.S. but I did not know that all pilot and WSO training takes place there. What was confusing me was how a BW Luftwaffe pilot or WSO could qualify for the next grade of a badge once he/she had been awarded the basic badge. I thought that if the BW Luftwaffe pilots were trained as pilots in Germany and then went to the U.S. for further training they would probably end up being awarded the basic class of the USAF flight qualification. However, if they got their basic qualification in the U.S. and received both the Luftwaffe and USAF wings as a result of their trainign then it would seem logical that as soon as they met the USAF basic requirments for the next highest rating IE Senior Pilot or Command Pilot they would then wear that wing.

Thanks for helping me work my way through this thing. Another example of not knowing the correct questions to ask to get the answer I wanted!

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

I think that we have pretty much exhausted the USAF wings on BW Luftwaffe uniforms so lets move on to something else. Pictured below is the BW Parachitists qualification badge and the Canadian Parachutist qualification badges worn on the uniform of General najor Uhle at one time the number two in command of the BW Luftlandedivision. Sorry for the blurry photo. I took this picture in a very dark militaria shop in Vienna and the lens stayed open too long to take good shots.

Regards,

Gordon

[RamJet]

I think with Steve's last post, just above yours, we have established that USAF pilots wings would probably be the only ones that should be worn. I say "probably" because I never rule out any possibility. Too many times I've seen collectors remove insignia etc from uniforms because they thought they should not be there only to find out later that they did.

Gordo,

not probably, but the pilot wing of the USAF definitely is the only one going with a German pilot wing. Even the three or four WSOs who underwent pilot training in the beginning of the 90s wouldn't have combined their new German pilot wings with their old USAF navigator wings, as the rated pilot is considered higher in the jet community than the backseater ... And the one on Your tunic isn't even a navigator wing but only an aircrew wing. The tunic was in no case worn in this set-up as standard by a German Luftwaffe officer, believe me. Replace the US badge with an USAF command pilot wing (You get one for small money in every USAF PX, best ask a forum member who is in the USAF) or just remove it to get the tunic "real".

What was confusing me was how a BW Luftwaffe pilot or WSO could qualify for the next grade of a badge once he/she had been awarded the basic badge. I thought that if the BW Luftwaffe pilots were trained as pilots in Germany and then went to the U.S. for further training they would probably end up being awarded the basic class of the USAF flight qualification. However, if they got their basic qualification in the U.S. and received both the Luftwaffe and USAF wings as a result of their trainign then it would seem logical that as soon as they met the USAF basic requirments for the next highest rating IE Senior Pilot or Command Pilot they would then wear that wing.

Exactly. They qualifiy for the higher classes of both wings, USAF and Luftwaffe, at the same time when thy got more flying hours and further training. But German jet pilots are not trained first in Germany and then go to the US for advanced training, they started all their flight training in the US.

To confuse You further: You will find younger WSOs of the Luftwaffe wearing not USAF navigator wings but US Navy NFO (Naval Flight Officer) wings, as WSO training for Luftwaffe backseaters was shifted from the USAF at Mather AFB to the USN at NAS Pensacola some years ago ...

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

Thanks for all the info but I'll stick with "probable" for the reasons stated. If someone didn't know that the WSO traioning had beentransfered fron the U.S. Air Force to the U. S. Navy they would never believe it if they saw a pair of navy wings on a BW Luftwaffe uniform.
I'll certainly get a set of USAF Command Pilot wings and will probably put them on the tunic in place of the ones that are there now. If I just remove the wings you will probably see the holes in the pocket and the outline of the wings as they have been there a long time. That would not look good.

Regards,

Gordon

[RamJet]

Of course You can do whatever You want with Your tunic, I just tried to give the info what is possible and what not. Didn't want to push You into something.