West Germany Fallschirmjager Spange

[speedytop]

Hi Harry,

there are problems for me with the jacket, precise with the two patches on this jacket.

I think, that both are sewn incorrectly.

The Luftlandtruppen patch must be higher on the arm, 17 cm below the sleeve seems.
The Fallschirmspringerabzeichen with the top edge of the wings must be parallel to the pocket top edge.

Uwe

[SirHarry1]

Yes Uwe, and what does that tell us? There is a regulation and there is real life. This uniform has been worn exactly as it is now, I bought it directly from the man who owned it and he assured me that nothing has been changed since he took it off the last time.
Harry

[Collectinsteve]

Beautiful pictures!

I am curious... when did the Luftlandtruppen switch to the left arm? I thought it was only on the right arm for the Affenjacke (and placed high, like Uwe wrote). Sir Harry's jacket is from mid 1960s? At the very least it is 2 uniform changes since the Affenjacke.

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

According to my reference material the arm badges moved from the right arm to the left arm in 1964. The style of jump wings on this tunic was in wear from 58 to 66. The style of the tunic fits the period in which the depicted insignia would have been worn.

Regards,

Gordon

[SirHarry1]

Steve and Gordon,
That goes along with the info I got from the vet, he told me he served in the early 60s. And it was the period before the sleeve patches were introduced, this tunic never had a patch on the left arm.

Best

Harry

[Collectinsteve]

You have a very rare jacket indeed! I have a theory about the lower position.

The early position was much higher, as Uwe correctly stated. The standard position on the left arm is, of course, lower. Roughly where Luftlandtruppen badge is on Harry's jacket. This jacket is probably from 1963 or 1964, right at the end of the right arm badge. Maybe they changed the regulations to have the badge lower and this regulation change carried over to the standard left arm placement?

As with so many early BW uniforms, the amount of time between changes is very small. Usually there are periods of experimentation, even contradiction, before long lived standards are established. So I think my theory is a possible explanation that supports the facts as we know them. I think this is at least more likely than the Harry's FJ member simply putting the badge wherever he wanted

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

I always hesitate to comment on the originality of tunics/badges from a photograph. The pictures of the sewing on the badges do tend support you speculation that the original owner sewed the badges into place himself. But pictures can be deceiving. However, the position of the oval para badge on the right sleeve, at least according to my reference material, was always 17cm from the shoulder seam as Uwe has stated. While the badges and the tunic fit the correct time period I find it difficult to believe that der Speiss would have allowed these badges to be worn as shown. This is just my personal opinion though and I in no way refute what Sir Harry was told by the chap who wore this tunic in service in the BW.
One thing I did not realize was how few pictures I could find showing this early badge in wear on the right sleeve. Actually, I didn't find any while looking for one today. A gap in our knowledge here.

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Gordon,

While the badges and the tunic fit the correct time period I find it difficult to believe that der Speiss would have allowed these badges to be worn as shown.

That is the nub of my theory, in fact My first thought was "this came from a vet, and he said that's the way he wore it" immediately made me think that something must have changed in the regs, even if only for a few months, to change the height of the badge on the right arm prior to moving it over to the left arm.

Given that there is "provenance" with this jacket, the unlikely toleration of a major departure from regs, the lack of photos of the time period to show things either way, the known fact that the badge height was lowered soon after (probably months after this uniform was stitched!), and our collection of regulations surely is incomplete... I think the most logical conclusion is that this jacket is correctly badged for its time of use.

Or put another way, unless someone has evidence to show this jacket is incorrectly badged, I think we should assume it is correctly badged. The weight of evidence does appear to favor that position.

Steve

[SirHarry1]

Wow folks, what a discussion about that patch being a bit too high or not, I am amazed. I believe this a very good example, as I stated earlier, of the difference between real life and a regulation. And Gordon, even though today its a different German Army, in these early days with so many people in the BW being vets of WWII - no Spiess on earth would step up to an Oberleutnant telling him that his patch is sewn too low! I took a couple of tours as a reservist in the last years and I found it a completely different army now than when I was on active duty in the early 80s. Today, with many officers even being on a first name basis with some older NCOs I reckon it would be possible, but not in the period we are talking about.
But as I say, very interesting conversation, thats what I like about the forum!!
Harry

[speedytop]

Harry,

are there some more informations about the vet? When he left the Bw? What was his last rank?

Is there a date in the inside of the left inner pocket or a label of the maker of the jacket?


Gordon,

the arm badges moved from the right arm to the left arm in 1962.

The style of jump wings was in wear from 1958 to 1965; but I think, some wore it longer.


Hi Steve,

"I think the most logical conclusion is that this jacket is correctly badged for its time of use. "

No, not correct, Gordon: "The pictures of the sewing on the badges do tend support you speculation that the original owner sewed the badges into place himself."
It is never made by a professional tailor, not KKB/KKBw, not Kuhnert, Rahne or other civilian tailors.

But I saw different ways of wearing the badge on the right arm, sewed very high, and sewed very low.
The last regulations say definitely: 17 cm below the sleeve seems.
And we are taking/writing here about the last possible time of the badges on the right arm, 1962.

"... standard left arm placement" is 4 cm below the sleeve seems.


But the style of the tunic does in my opinion not fits the period, and that is my main problem.
The new uniform in light grey with the coloured and rounded shoulder boards came in earliest 1963, only for private buyers (officers and some NCO's).

Why should a (I think) professional officer buy a new jacket with the old badge on the right arm?
The new uniform is correct with the new "Verbandsabzeichen" only on the left arm.
I saw an old uniform with the peaked and uncoloured shoulder boards direct in or after 1962, where the officer (LTC) changed the old badge from the right arm to the left arm, but never before I saw a new uniform with an old badge on the right arm.
And why did this uniform end with the rank "Oberleutnant"?

For me it is unusual and very suspicious, it is not to combine with the regulations.


OBTW Harry, on my first day as a soldier in the Bundeswehr I met a company commander (Captain) and a Spieß, talking "on a first name basis". In 1964.

And a German Spieß could always say to an officer: "Herr Oberleutnant, darf ich Sie darauf aufmerksam machen, dass ..."

Uwe

[Collectinsteve]

Big discussions about small details is what collectors like to do most

Uwe,

The arm badge change was 1962? If that is true then my opinion changes very much. Gordon had thought the change was in 1964. This style of tunic could possibly be from 1963 or 1964, not earlier certainly. So if the badge switched from right to left in 1962, then this uniform does not make sense.

While I agree with Harry that regulations are not 100% followed, but there are some regulations that aren't likely broken. Wearing old pointed shoulder boards until 1963... that seems likely. Wearing the badge on the wrong arm 2+ years later? I don't think that is very likely.

Harry,

Is there a date on jacket?

Steve

[irish]

Hello Gents, I am a bit late to this thread but have found it fascinating. I am including some wings from my collection that were brought back from Thailand in the early to mid 1980's. I assume these are for Thai Partroopers who had qualified for the W. German para wing. the backs are clutch except for the gold which has a pin and a srew type attachment, this is the first wing.. Are these the 1966 to 1983 pattern? It is a bit hard for me to tell. thanks for looking

[irish]

A couple more.

[SirHarry1]

No label in the jacket and no other information available since I can´t ask the man any more. He told me he left the BW as Oberleutnant and that this was his tunic in exactly the state he wore it. So as much as I like the discussion about all this - its nothing but speculation.

Harry

[Uncle Kurt]

Hi,
I intend this uniform jacket a few years beo ebay seen and unfortunately missed.
I think the jacket Korekt ansolut for.
the paratroopers wore in the 60s these badges so deep.
Here is a photo of my collection aud where you can also see the good.

irish,
intressant wings