West Germany Fallschirmjager Spange

[Gordon Craig]

Unkle Kurt,

Your picture says it all. Thanks for posting it and proving that the para badge was actually worn in this position on the right sleeve.

Regards,

Gordon

[speedytop]

Hi Uncle Kurt and Gordon,

the regulations say:

"... auf dem rechten Oberarm unmittelbar unter dem Dienstgradabzeichen bzw. 17 cm unter der Ärmeleinsatznaht."

... direct under the rank insignia (EM and UoP), that is definitely more than 17 cm.
... 17cm below the sleeve seems (UmP and Officers).


Please note the correct mounting of the "Fallschirmspringerabzeichen", parallel to the pocket.

Uwe

[Gordon Craig]

Uwe,

Thanks for quoting the regulations. There was never any doubt in my mind that the "Fallschirmspringerabzeichen" should be level with the pocket. The picture Unkle Kurt posted shows that very well. It also illustrates the regulations for the positioning of the arm badge for EM and UoP very well.
I've been scanning my reference books all morning trying to make sense of what we have said here previously. I wasn't making much headway until you posted the regulations. Here is a picture from Kunswadl's book that I think will add to this discussion. It illustrates the wearing of the badge we have been discussing, by officers, as per the regulations you have quoted. It seems to be rather high on the sleeve unless the distance from the sleeve seam was to the bottom of the badge. I would have expected the distance from the sleeve seam would be to the top of the badge?

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

Great stuff!! I now have more brain cells happy with practically useless information. I love collecting

Steve

[speedytop]

Gordon,

this is a very early picture of this badge, I think it is in mid 1957.

And I think, that in the first time (weeks/months?) no one knew, where to place the badge precise on the right arm!

But the regulations started in May 1957 exact with these sentences, see my Post before. It never changed.

17 cm is from the top of the badge.


Yes, I can support the view, that there is theorie and praxis, like "Marx and Murks".

You can see it with the regulations about the "Verbandsabzeichen", 4 cm below the sleeve seem.

That is very seldom! In my collection I can find 4.7 cm up to 7 cm. No one with 4 cm! Without a problem!

Uwe

[Gordon Craig]

Uwe,

Thanks for your additional comments. Always useful information.

Regards,

Gordon

[Uncle Kurt]

Hello Uwe,
I do not think that this picture of Gordon beginning of 1957!
See the soldiers, collar insignia and paratrooper helmets
for me is the end 1957 beginning 1958

[speedytop]

Hi Uncle Kurt,

I don't see anything, that could change my opinion.

Why it could not be June/July/August 1957 (mid 1957)?
One of the helmets?

Uwe

[SirHarry1]

Gents, I am out of this. There is a regulation and there is real life. Period.
Harry

[Guardian 5]

A couple more.

irish - Thanks for sharing such high quality photos of high quality wings. I think your theory that these wings were manufactured for Thai parachutists who had qualified for BW wings is valid.

As an alternate theory, I've read that BW officers posted to eastern Asian countries as foreign area or liaison officers were asked by their peers to obtain high quality / low cost wings while stationed abroad. The examples shown would certainly add flair to any uniform tunic.

The backings on the wings you showed however, do not seem to match BW uniform coloration, thus shooting this theory full of holes.

In any event, the wings you posted are wonderful examples and we thank you again for sharing them.

All the best - TJ

[Guardian 5]

Gents, I am out of this. There is a regulation and there is real life. Period.
Harry

Harry - I hope you do not find our debate too off-putting. We greatly value your contribution and hope you will share more treasures from your collection.

All the best - TJ

[Uncle Kurt]

Hi Uwe,
Because these helmets were not introduced until later.
The helmets we kammen see in the picture of Gordon until later.
See the Book:
Ludwig Baer, from the helmet battle helmet, Volume II, Page 129th
As the end of the 1957 is only the shown helmets went to trial.

Hi Uwe,
Weil diese Helme erst Später eingeführt wurden.
Die Helme die wir auf dem Bild von Gorden sehen kammen erst Später.
Siehe in dem Buch:
Ludwig Baer, Vom Stahlhelm zum Gefechtshelm, Band II, seite 129.
Da steht das erst Ende 1957 die gezeigten Helme in die Erprobung gingen.

[SirHarry1]

TJ,
No, I am absulutely not put-off. But I realise when a discussion is led just to discuss and, pardon me, some people just discuss to be right. There are so many things between heaven and earth that are totally contrary to laws, regulation etc. - and still they are there. So when I see its useless to go on then I just quit and get out of it. But of course I will use the forum in the future, no doubt about it.

best wishes

Harry

Harry - I hope you do not find our debate too off-putting. We greatly value your contribution and hope you will share more treasures from your collection.

All the best - TJ

[speedytop]

Hi Harry,

"... some people just discuss to be right."

Everybody can change my opinion, but it must be retraceable for me, possibly based on primary sources.

"... its nothing but speculation."

My comments are mostly based on primary sources. I use old books, magazines, regulations and my own experience. For the Bundeswehr nearly 40 years own active experience since 1961.


Uncle Kurt,

I have my problems with that dating, because I can find pictures in old books with, as I think, helmets like the helmets in the Kunstwadl picture.

The book "Jahrbuch der Bundeswehr 1958, edited by Hauptmann Reinhard Hauschild, Breitkopf und Hartel 1957" is from 1957, with a preface from autumn 1957. The pictures must therefore be a little bit older (mid 1957).

Just the year 1957 was a year of experiments, searching for the best helmets.
I think, that we must differentiate between field tests and the date of the introduction of a new helmet.

This is a selection of different helmets from the "Jahrbuch der Bundeswehr 1958":







Uwe

[irish]

Thomas,

Thanks for your comments on the Thai made W German wings. I am going through my collection this evening and have dug out a number of other variations that I will post tomorrow.