Bundesluftwaffe Uniforms

[Gordon Craig]

SprogCollector,

Congrats on finding the bronze wing. Makes the hat look great. I really need to start looking harder for one of those caps. So many things to look for and so little time!

Regards,

Gordon

[SprogCollector]

Found this photo online. Appears to be an Affenjacke. I thought it noteworthy to point out the small wing worn high on the left chest. Looks like the same wing worn on the current LW uniform.

No collar tabs present so this is a pretty early photo. Was this an unofficial means to symbolize a pilots badge?

[Gordon Craig]

SprogCollector,

Interesting photo. Too bad we can not see the right side of the tunic. While this is an early tunic it was probably in wear in this photo some time in the 60s. I am sticking my neck out here, and this is just a guess, but if I remember correctly, Uwe said he wore an Affenjake in 65. According to Kunswadl, regulations for the the introduction of the tactical insignia were issued on 21 April, 1965. He also says there was a non-regulation metal wing worn. That gives us two possibilities; 1-the chap had the wing sewn on the wrong side; 2-he had a specific tactical insignia on the right breast of his jacket and elected to wear a metal wing on the left breast. We will never know for sure! Kunstwadl also has a picture in his book of an
Oberfähnrich der Luftwaffe who is wearing the plain cloth wing over his right breast pocket and U.S. A. F. metal pilots wings over his left breast pocket! So lots of things will turn up in photos to baffle us.

Regards,

Gordon

[SprogCollector]

Gordon,
Along the same lines, would an Affenjacke worn after 1958 still be without the collar tabs? I agree this tunic begs many questions.

Questions I still have regarding timelines:
1. When was the stylized wing moved over the right breast?
2. When were the winged cuff titles phased out?
3. Was there an interim aircrew wing (per the photo)?
4. When was the current pilot wing introduced?

[Gordon Craig]

SprogCollector,

If I remember correctly, the collar tabs were not intorduced until 1960. If the Affenjacke were worn after that, and it would appear that they certainly were, the collar tabs would have been applied to them. I think that it would be rare to find one not retro fitted with collar tabs.
If you go back over this thead you will find the answers to questions number 1 and 2. The regulatuons for these took place at the same time.
#3-what is being worn in the foto is not an aircrew wing but the standard wing worn by all Luft personnel who didn't wear a specific tactical wing. Here is a foto f(below) from one of my reference books showing the variations possible in this general service wing, the metal "non-official" metal wing plus a variety of cloth pilots wings for the Heer, Luftwaffe and Marine. There are several more pages of cloth and metal tactical wings in the book.
4-as far as I am aware, the last change to pilots wings took place in 1980. There have been changes to the tactical insignia made in 93 and 2000 and I haven't studied this area that closely but they don't seem to have affected the pilots wings. There were also changes made to the Weapons Sytems Officers and Observers tactical insignia over the years but these are complex and I am not an well versed in this area so I won't attempt to go there.

Regards,

Gordon

[SprogCollector]

The photo in post #92 offers some intriguing research points.

Gordon: thanks for pointing out some of the relevant dates within this thread. I've read the entire post a few times but managed to miss the intro dates for the early wings.

I did some brief research on the aircraft shown to see if it offered any additional clues as to timeline. The F-84F-66 RE was part of a 1953 USAF aircraft contract and the serials ran from 53-6716 to 53-6835. From the photo, we can see that this particular aircraft was number 6771 or #55 in the production sequence for this model.

F-84F-50 series aircraft were produced in 1955 and the last F84F-75 rolled off the line in 1957 -- making it pretty realistic that the -60 series was 1956. USAF apparently got rid of its frontline F-84 (to the National Guard) by January 1958 but then took on a small batch when they took over the training establishment at Luke and Nellis AFBs in July 1958. The F-84s used exclusively for training purposes. The above would date the photo to mid-1958, at the earliest.

The wing on the left breast might be an attempt to mimic the US practice of wearing them there?

Timeline info per this thread:
- Yellow collar tabs introduced in Feb 1957
- early tactical wing seen photographically on this thread as early as 1961 (WW1 honor titles photo)

Per your comment #3 in post #95 re: wing worn by all who didn't have a specific tactical badge: I'd want to delve more into this. I understand that the current style abzeichen didn't exist prior to 1965. That said, was the wing worn in the following photo worn by all or was this wing, at this point in time, an aircrew wing?

[speedytop]

Hi.

I found my copies of the official regulations.

That is better and more precise than all the books can be.

BMVtdg, 4. Mai 1957:
"Vom fliegenden Personal der Luftwaffe, ... sind folgende Abzeichen anzulegen:
1. Tätigkeitsabzeichen für das fliegende Personal der Luftwaffe, ...
Ausführung: Schwinge, gestickt auf Abzeichentuch, und zwar
a) eine Ausführung für Luftwaffen- und Heerespersonal,
b) ...
Trageweise: waagerecht auf der rechten Brustseite auf Rock, Dienstbluse und Jackett, ...
Das Abzeichen darf vom fliegenden Personal erst nach abgeschlossener fliegerischer Ausbildung getragen werden.
..."

That is the official directive, to wear the wings, but only for flying personnel with completed training!
May 1957!


BMVtdg, 8. August 1957:
"Folgende Abzeichen sind eingeführt worden und anzulegen:
...
Kragenspiegel der Luftwaffe
Zwei sich gegeneinander neigende silbergraue Eichenlaubblätter und eine waagerechte Schwinge auf goldgelber, rechteckiger Grundfläche, mit silbergrauer Umrandung.
Die Abzeichen für Mannschaften gewebt, für Unteroffiziere maschinengestickt, für Offiziere handgestickt, sind auf den beiden Kragenecken am Ausgeh- und Dienstrock zu tragen.
..."

That is the official directive, to wear the collar tabs!
August 1957!


Therefore, see Post 92, this picture must be made in May, June, July or August 1957.
Made in the USA; and it could be a misinterpretation of the regulations by the men far away from Germany.

Regards
Uwe

[Gordon Craig]

Uwe,

Thanks for posting the regulations. Always good to be able to go to the source documents.

SprogCollector,
The officers in the picture you posted were all pilots so they wear the wing for that reason.

Regards,

Gordon

[SprogCollector]

Thanks for your replies. Very helpful.

I think some of my confusion arises from a uniform I have from the late 1980s. The jacket does not have the turnback cuffs and does not have the generic winged cuff titles. However, it does have the early style aircrew wing above the right breast pocket.

After 1965 (introduction of the current style pilot wings), were the old style wings ever used for any other purpose? At the time I acquired my 1980s service jacket (mid-1990s), I thought the wing was simply an indicator of air force service -- replacing the indicators provided by the old LW cuff titles. Obviously I've been confused ever since!

[speedytop]

Hi SprogCollector,

where is your problem?

You can find this wing in the newest regulations, it is the basic badge for the Luftwaffe:

Teilstreitkraftabzeichen Luftwaffe (Doppelschwinge)

Please see here, No. 504 (page 147):

http://www.pumakompanie.de/HTML_dat/...eien/37_10.pdf

For the other badges (Tätigkeitsabzeichen) you must be qualified, and the basic badge must be removed.

For the "Tätigkeitsabzeichen" please see Anlage 7/1 (page 247) in the pdf document.

For pilots for example see Anlage 7/1 2. a) (page 248)

Regards
Uwe

[SprogCollector]

Hi Uwe,
Thanks for your post.

My confusion was that, until this thread, I was unaware that the modern basic Luftwaffe badge had been previously used as an aircrew badge.

[Gordon Craig]

Gents,

To continue this thread, I have auniform that I invite your comments on. I've been bit a couple of time in the last few months in buying uniforms that were not exactly what they were supposed to be and I am getting a little wary of what is being offered. The Bundesluftwaffe uniform pictured below is available to me but since I have never handles one I would like the guys who have been following this thread to comment. The real knowledge pool lies with the guys who have commented on this thread.
The tunic is said to be dated 1956 and it looks correct for the date to me. The collar tabs and cuffbands appear to have ben added later. That is not necessarily bad because we know the collar tabs came a long later and the cuffbands could have been added later as well. They are sewn through the lining of the sleeves.
The shoulder boards look original to the tunic but I do not have any rank charts that show this particular rank worn on these uniforms. Anyone help here?

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

A close up of the collar tabs and the shoulder boards.

[Gordon Craig]

The sleeves turned back to show the cuffbands sewn through the lining.

[SprogCollector]

Gordon: The jacket pattern looks correct. What color is the collar piping? It appears a bronze color.

As you've mentioned, the addition of the collar tabs and cuff titles would be expected to comply with the 1957+ additions of those items.

I don't know when the rank shown was introduced??

One item to look closer at: jacket color. I think Uwe referenced earlier in this thread that pre-1957 uniforms were the same grey color for both Heer and Luftwaffe. If this is correct, the jacket shown would be grey, not blue-grey.