BGS BundesGrenzSchutz

[Collectinsteve]

Every first model, that I have seen in past several years for sale was 1959 dated, so I must unfortunately still disagree. It sound like you purchased most of your pieces much longer ago though and base judgements on that, rather than what has been on market more recently, so that is probably reason for our different observations...

Could be I started accumulating 1st model stuff around 2006 through this year. Anyway, it seems neither of us care about this so there's no point in discussing it further.

The only real difference for early production jackets from 1958 is the lack of shoulderboard loops, which is my interest. Otherwise is only a date and would not care.

Unfortunately, the date alone says nothing. I have pictures of two Vulkan jackets with identical V/59 dates. One has what looks like factory loops on it, the other obviously field made loops. I have pictures of a 58 dated jacket with what looks to be factory loops on it, I have a 59 jacket in my collection without loops or signs they were removed.

From this information I have a theory that sometime after V/59 production the regulations were changed to add loops. Many jackets in stock were professionally modified to have the loops added, others were modified by the soldiers or perhaps local tailors.

Coincidentally the Austrians were doing the exact same thing in 1959/60 with their older KAZ57 uniforms. The uniforms were produced without epaullets, but at some point before the KAZ59 uniform went into production they decided to adopt shoulder rank. They retroactively added epaulettes (either with snaps or with buttons) to the older uniforms. They must have done a very thorough job because I don't think I've ever seen a KAZ57 jacket without epaulets.

Swiss and Swedish armed forces also have a history of major modifications to older stocks of uniforms to conform with newer uniform designs.

Because they not break them out of storage, they were still issued this late for field exercises! It took long time for some units to receive new uniforms.

Yes, but not by 1982-1984 I am sure. Which means, in my mind, the Sumpftarn parkas were used based on preference, not need.

Einsatzhosen were already phased out in mid-late 70s. Trousers are for the Mehrzweckanzug (introduced 1973), could be the earlier schwarzgrün instead of moss green introduced after 1976 (except for GSG 9), but hard to tell.

That is my only guess as well, however the colors do not seem to match. I know color photos are difficult to make such conclusions, but the other colors in the photos appear to be relatively correct.

btw completely different from Gene T's trousers. Not sure what his are, material look similar to BGS summer tunic worn in 1950s-60s, but the elastic bands are more 60s feature.

Gene's trousers are earlier Arbeitshose. I also think they are from the 1950s-1960s time period.

Steve

[Collectinsteve]

Hmm, smooth-legged pants? Can they be some version of these?

I agree with Klaus that the answer is a pretty solid "no"

My sieve-like brain can no longer recall if I had posted these before. If I had, and was told what they actually are, I can no longer remember what I had learned. I hope it's not early onset dementia!

As I just mentioned, it is part of the Arbeitsanzug. The jacket had two lower pockets with a simple flap and a single pass through button (i.e. not hidden like the field uniforms). The design goes back to the early 1950s for sure as I have a picture of BGS guys in them cleaning Mausers with no arm badges. Later photos show an arm badge present.

There is no legible marking left in any of the usual places, not even a size label or stamp.

I just looked for my set and couldn't find it. I think it got relocated when I was documenting my Einsatz stuff. However, I did find a jacket which, I think, might be a spare. It has a label but the information is washed out. I have pictures of a label from one and it clearly says "BGS" along with the size and a contract number, but no date.

I picked these out of a pile of surplus trousers of mixed origin.

Great find!! These are very rare IMHO.

Steve

[Klaus1989]

Gene's trousers are likely 1960s, I have not encountered this elastic band on 1950s trousers, but quite common on 1960s issue. btw Arbeitsanzug refer usually to the Drillich uniform, less often to this, which was also referred to as Sommeranzug or "Moleskin".

Yes, but not by 1982-1984 I am sure. Which means, in my mind, the Sumpftarn parkas were used based on preference, not need.

The Sumpftarn parkas were still issued for field exercises into mid 1980s. This would seem confirmed by veterans who served then. As you know, they never wore camo on border to avoid incidents. The transition period was very slow.

Another 1980s Sumpftarn parka. Found on a blog, unfortunately no further info, but from American uniform and use of beret, likely same timeframe as earlier ones (or slightly later - not sure when US Army units in BRD received woodland camo).



Regards
Klaus

[Klaus1989]

Gene,
here are the moleskin BGS jackets (sometimes called Sommerrock or Arbeitsjacke, but not to confuse with summer version of Dienstrock or the Drillich uniform). Introduced in early 1950s and worn at least until mid 1960s, although less commonly seen later. Could be worn in hot weather in place of Dienstrock in 1950s and in the field and for work duty (for work, often by Wachtmeister and higher, instad of Drillich). The left on was improperly restored, so ignore the shoulderboards and sleeve patch, that still must be sewn on!

Another collector claimed, that the right jacket was wrongly badged Hamburg or Bremen Polizei because of Hamburg Polizei depot markings inside (BEFA HBG). The material is slightly bluer green and thread is also blue green. Not familiar with such uniform used by Hamburg, so it remain unidentified at moment.



Regards
Klaus

[Collectinsteve]

The Sumpftarn parkas were still issued for field exercises into mid 1980s. This would seem confirmed by veterans who served then. As you know, they never wore camo on border to avoid incidents. The transition period was very slow.

6-8 years? I find that difficult to believe unless it was a deliberate delay of production until stocks of the Sumpftarn parkas were used up (i.e. to save money they used old before making new).

I think it is more likely preference. Remember the Bundeswehr's continued use of Splittertarn into the 1960s. They wore them over the replacement field uniforms, so obviously it was not a supply issue. Similarly, Belgian para/commandos were wearing 1958 produced items into the 1990s because they wanted to (and were allowed to until about 1997).

Another 1980s Sumpftarn parka. Found on a blog, unfortunately no further info, but from American uniform and use of beret, likely same timeframe as earlier ones (or slightly later - not sure when US Army units in BRD received woodland camo).

It is difficult to tell the difference between the late 1970s "transitional" camouflage uniform and the 1980s-2000s "Woodland" type from a small photo like this, but the hats weren't manufactured for the "transitional" type. This means the pictures are for sure after 1980. At the time US forces in Germany were usually the first ones to receive new equipment, so it could be from any time after about 1981. There's nothing else in the picture that can be dated as far as I can see.

Steve

[Collectinsteve]

Although I could not find my Arbeitsanzug easily, I did find pictures of it from an earlier post I made

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ug#post5834998

It is possible that the jacket is 1970 and the trousers 1978. I don't think Köhler was around in the 1960s, was it?

Steve

[Klaus1989]

6-8 years? I find that difficult to believe unless it was a deliberate delay of production until stocks of the Sumpftarn parkas were used up (i.e. to save money they used old before making new).

I think it is more likely preference. Remember the Bundeswehr's continued use of Splittertarn into the 1960s. They wore them over the replacement field uniforms, so obviously it was not a supply issue. Similarly, Belgian para/commandos were wearing 1958 produced items into the 1990s because they wanted to (and were allowed to until about 1997).

I think you misunderstand. It was not a "transitional" thing for 6-8 years, but that they were still issued, when the mission required it - mainly for field exercises. This was to spare the new green parkas apparently. These were still occasionally conducted into the 1980s, but with less frequency. If it was matter of personal preference, you would not see entire units wearing them. The only part of your theory, that I agree with is to use up old stocks, not the preference part.

Regards
Klaus

[Klaus1989]

Although I could not find my Arbeitsanzug easily, I did find pictures of it from an earlier post I made

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ug#post5834998

It is possible that the jacket is 1970 and the trousers 1978. I don't think Köhler was around in the 1960s, was it?

Steve

That is the Drillich uniform though. Gene's look like Moleskin, which would indicate the 4-pocket tunic of 1950s/60s, if it is BGS. The Drillich Arbeitsanzug was still worn in 1970s, so nothing odd about that. Your trousers are also 1970 dated btw.

Regards
Klaus

[Gene T]

Thanks for the very informative discussion, guys!

Klaus is right, my pants are made out of a fine-grained moleskin, but it's interesting that Steve's HBT work pants share many of the same features. I should note that my moleskin pants have a very baggy cut; which is something else that suggests an earlier vintage.

You guys have probably forgotten more than I will ever learn on this subject!

Thanks again for the enlightenment!

[Klaus1989]

The moleskin trousers are very rare. The jackets are not very common either actually. There was another poster here, who had them, but unfortunately deleted his photos. A comparison would have helped. They had no elastic as I remember, but they were from mid or late 50s. Only pair, that I have seen in a collection.

Regards
Klaus

[Collectinsteve]

Thanks for the very informative discussion, guys!

Yup! Interesting enough that I'm not worrying too much about the work I'm not doing today

Klaus is right, my pants are made out of a fine-grained moleskin, but it's interesting that Steve's HBT work pants share many of the same features. I should note that my moleskin pants have a very baggy cut; which is something else that suggests an earlier vintage.

AH! I see what you and Klaus are talking about. The color and cut was what I was focused on, not the cloth.

Klaus,

I'm unfamilar with the moleskin type uniform. Do you know much about it, other than being very rare? Was it introduced instead of the HBT type for a period of time, or was it instead of?

BTW, I am unsure what to call these uniforms. My understanding is that the Germans tended to call the all purpose uniform "Arbeits" while Austria (and Switzerland?) called theirs "Drillich". Do the Germans consider these to be separate purpose uniforms and actually have two uniforms sometimes?

Steve

[Klaus1989]

Klaus,

I'm unfamilar with the moleskin type uniform. Do you know much about it, other than being very rare? Was it introduced instead of the HBT type for a period of time, or was it instead of?

BTW, I am unsure what to call these uniforms. My understanding is that the Germans tended to call the all purpose uniform "Arbeits" while Austria (and Switzerland?) called theirs "Drillich". Do the Germans consider these to be separate purpose uniforms and actually have two uniforms sometimes?

Steve

Steve,
I posted photo of my 2 tunics above (post #829), although the one on right is questionable if really BGS. You have probably seen them in period photos.

Drillich refer to the material in German (= herringbone twill), but also often to uniforms made from it. The BGS work uniform made from Drillich is indeed called the Arbeitsanzug. The moleskin is a multipurpose uniform, mostly for summer wear. I have seen it referred to as both Sommeranzug and Arbeitsanzug, so not sure which correct.

[Klaus1989]

This should help understand, what I meant. Left tunic is moleskin (Sommerrock), right is Arbeitsjacke (Drillich material). There is also a matching moleskin cap in style of Bergmütze with fake flaps, but I have never seen one except in period photos.



Regards
Klaus

[Collectinsteve]

All clear now!

Arbeits = Drillich
Sommer = Moleskin

Two uniforms, not 3 or 4. Got it! I'm glad because for a minute I thought I had to find both a Sommer and a Moleskin uniform, now I "only" have to find one

Steve

[michelwijnand]

Finally got the old shoulderboards today, bought the 4 sets together for just the Grenztruppjäger ones, I'll probably keep the Hauptwachtmeister ones too, and sell the lower 2, if anyone needs them, drop me a line.
I also got 1 set of buttons with them, so attaching them to my jacket now, I'll be making pics of the set later.
Ignore the Danish M69 gasmask bag, it also arrived today.





Cheers,
Michel