BGS BundesGrenzSchutz

[james c]

[Collectinsteve]

Nice group of items! Very strong colors on the jacket. Pity someone removed the elbow reinforcements. I don't think I've seen that done before. I wonder why?

In the spirt of helping with item identification...

What is that belt? I don't recognize it from the pictures. Not BGS, that's the only thing I can tell.

Note that the jacket you have is from 1967-1975 time period. This type of jacket did not have a hood. The hoods are from the previous type that was produced 1958-1962 (or something in that range).

The Sumpftarn hat you have looks to be a repro, but hard to tell from that one partial picture. They were only produced in the 1958-1962 timeframe and should have two plastic buttons on the front. The ones I've seen are also well marked with an ink stamp.

Trousers are possibly Berlin Polizei. Hard to tell from the photos, but that would be my guess. Black PPBerlin stamp should be visible somewhere inside. If it's BGS there should be BGS stamp, but very often it's washed out.

Steve

[michelwijnand]

The belt almost seems to me like a BW buckle paired with some modified leather belt? I mean the buckle with Einigkeit, Recht, Freiheit on it

[Klaus1989]

I agree with Steve - it is nice start for late 1960s/early 70s display. A few more tips to improve: loop on canteen cap should not go around belt and camo cap look like Sturm copy (which is not correctly made). The belt buckle is Bw - BGS belts are like WH officer belt. The belt look like it could be Bw or Polizei. Also, if y-straps have no magazine pouches to attach, the d-rings would be used.

I would also change the shoulderboards for one of the Grenzjäger ranks, if you want the standard equipment like you show and think not original to jacket. They are for Meister i. BGS, who as senior NCOs entitled to wear brown leather officer equipment, which very difficult to find.

Here is the equipment for period of your jacket. Canteen and messkit should be reversed in this photo. Although sometimes worn like WW2, the reverse arrangement (like next photo) is more common.


And to compare, here is for mid-1950s. Good luck to put this together - it took me over 5 years to find everything! What make it hard is, BGS preferred to copy WW2 equipment with slight improvements, instead of to use the piles of surplus for some reason...


Regards
Klaus

[Klaus1989]

Here is my set for Unterführer (Wachtmeister, Oberwachtmeister, etc.) in the position of Gruppenführer, ca. late 1950s-early 60s. Armed with MP Beretta and Astra 600/43. There are multiple combinations possible, but this is common one.

8x30 Dienstglas is BGS marked, but still need the lens cover and buttonhole flap, which are absent on mine.



Regards
Klaus

[Nachrichten]

BGS home movie(s):-

http://www.beim-alten-bgs.de/Zu_den_...i____film.html

Enjoy!

N

[Collectinsteve]

Great film! Some observations/questions:

1. Fun to see all the Splittertarn Zeltbahn being used as intended. The BGS must have made tons of these since they were only produced in the mid-late 1950s, and yet are still easy to find today. Obviously they were still many in service even in 1964.

2. The hats seem to be missing the bullseyes and buttons. At least it looked that way to me.

3. What the heck are those Zeltbhans seen in 1:42 and a few seconds after? That's not Splittertarn! I am primarily a camouflage collector and I can not identify what those are!

4. 2:01 appears to show a guy wearing an Arbeitsjacke with metal buttons?

5. Nice Schlafsanzug seen at 2:25. I don't think I've seen any in collections or for sale.

6. Loved the MG-3 training shown around the 12 minute mark. Especially the drill to switch gunner and assistant gunner positions at 12:40.

Thanks for posting the link!

Steve

[Gene T]

Great film! Some observations/questions:


3. What the heck are those Zeltbhans seen in 1:42 and a few seconds after? That's not Splittertarn! I am primarily a camouflage collector and I can not identify what those are!


Steve

I think it's an optical illusion, Steve. Both are Splittertarn, but one is 30 ft away, while the other is 3 ft away, yet due to the triangular shape, the high color contrast of the BGS Splittertarn, and the blurriness of the film, you might not have perceived the separation distance. It's more obvious when you pause the video (e.g., the Zeltbahn in the foreground at 1:42 shows two "heads" at the top, back to back against the central seam, oriented in opposite directions, exactly as you would expect to see them). Or am I not looking at what you were looking at?


Gene T

[Asbjoern]

Steve, I think the guys at 2:21 are not wearing a Schlafanzug (Night suit) but a sporting dress very similar to the first BW sport-dress! even the eagle is in the same place! But anyway its true tht I did not know a real piece with BGS background....

Jens

[Nachrichten]

Great film! Some observations/questions:

1. Fun to see all the Splittertarn Zeltbahn being used as intended. The BGS must have made tons of these since they were only produced in the mid-late 1950s, and yet are still easy to find today. Obviously they were still many in service even in 1964.

2. The hats seem to be missing the bullseyes and buttons. At least it looked that way to me.

3. What the heck are those Zeltbhans seen in 1:42 and a few seconds after? That's not Splittertarn! I am primarily a camouflage collector and I can not identify what those are!

4. 2:01 appears to show a guy wearing an Arbeitsjacke with metal buttons?

5. Nice Schlafsanzug seen at 2:25. I don't think I've seen any in collections or for sale.

6. Loved the MG-3 training shown around the 12 minute mark. Especially the drill to switch gunner and assistant gunner positions at 12:40.

Thanks for posting the link!

Steve

Indeed, there is plenty to talk about (and observe) here.

For me, the most interesting aspect was the camo caps. So many without either the National Kokarde or the buttons. Methinks some 'conventional wisdom' (and long-cherished belief) amongst collectors must be revised.

This is a great site and I am glad to be able to bring it to your collective attention again.

N

[Collectinsteve]

I think it's an optical illusion, Steve. Both are Splittertarn, but one is 30 ft away, while the other is 3 ft away, ...

I don't think so. I looked at it again. Check out 1:41 when you can see the zelts right in front to the left and another set off to the right. These are nearly the same distance from the camera and are massively different. Look at the other shots of the zelts as well. The mystery ones contain a couple VERY large dark shapes and little else. This is totally the opposite of the dark shapes on Splitter and Sumpf patterns.

I have no guess as to what they might be, but I'm sure it's not either Splitter or Sumpf.

Steve, I think the guys at 2:21 are not wearing a Schlafanzug (Night suit) but a sporting dress very similar to the first BW sport-dress! even the eagle is in the same place! But anyway its true tht I did not know a real piece with BGS background....

Jens

Yes, sports uniform is by far a better guess It seems logical that they might wear it when they woke up because they probably had to do some exercises/running in the morning.

Looking through some old photos I now see a few examples of it in the 1963-1965 time period. Same as this movie.

Indeed, there is plenty to talk about (and observe) here.

For me, the most interesting aspect was the camo caps. So many without either the National Kokarde or the buttons. Methinks some 'conventional wisdom' (and long-cherished belief) amongst collectors must be revised.

It is common to find the genuine Sumpftarn hats with the Kokarde manually removed, sometimes with and sometimes without buttons. The video is not clear enough to confirm if the buttons are present on these hats or not. I always thought this was done after the hat was surplussed, but it seems that some of this was done by soldiers. Perhaps they did not like the "bullseye" on their forehead?

Unfortunately there is not much documentation of the hats and few examples survive. I looked through a large number of photos from the 1963-1965 time period and found many pictures of hats with only buttons. In fact, one picture shows squad with a mix of hats with and without the Kokarde. I then looked through my pictures of hats I've seen for sale and in collections. I saw 2 complete, 4 without Kokarde, 1 without Kokarde or buttons.

This is a great site and I am glad to be able to bring it to your collective attention again.

Thanks for taking the time! The video is on a very well known (and by far the best) BGS website. However, new things are added and I don't have a habit of checking to see the new stuff. It could have been years before I saw this on my own!

Steve

[Gene T]

I don't think so. I looked at it again. Check out 1:41 when you can see the zelts right in front to the left and another set off to the right. These are nearly the same distance from the camera and are massively different. Look at the other shots of the zelts as well. The mystery ones contain a couple VERY large dark shapes and little else. This is totally the opposite of the dark shapes on Splitter and Sumpf patterns.

I have no guess as to what they might be, but I'm sure it's not either Splitter or Sumpf.

Are we looking at the same Zelt, Steve? I thought that you were referring to the one in the foreground, which is way closer to the camera than the one in the background. It is not in the form of a pyramid, but is assembled into a larger shelter using 8(?) modules, one of which is turned up. You can see this as the camera pans to the left. There are other units like this elsewhere in the camp site.

This is what I see:






Gene T

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Gene!

Yup, we're talking about the same one.

The shapes are totally correct. You got that nailed right on the head. But look at the scale difference between your images vs. the film. The shapes you've highlighted in the film are roughly 1/3rd the entire length of the Zelt. But the area shown in your images is maybe... what... 1/20th? Or to put it another way, within the area in your images there is exactly one button, but on the film there same shape would have maybe 5 or 6 buttons within the same area.

Also, to me the tent on the right looks to be right on top of the one in question. The camera looks to be about 3m-4m from the tent in question.

Do you see it now or do I finally have to admit that my 20/20 vision isn't what it used to be?

Steve

[Gene T]

Do you see it now or do I finally have to admit that my 20/20 vision isn't what it used to be?

You don't need to set up an appointment with your ophthalmologist just yet, my friend, but I am afraid your eagle eyes have deceived you in this instance!

The shapes you've highlighted in the film are roughly 1/3rd the entire length of the Zelt.

That is the crux of this optical illusion. Due to the juxtaposition of the Zelt in the foreground and the one in the background, their coincidental 'similarity in size' as framed by the camera angle, and the lack of depth perception cues in the blurry film, you perceived the tents as being right next to each other, when they are actually quite far apart. While you are looking at the background Zelt nearly in its full height, you are only seeing the very top of the one in the foreground, which is much closer to the camera than you had thought.

I believe this is more obvious when you look at the full video sequence. I made this screen capture collage to help you see what I am seeing, and have circled out the buttons in red as a scale reference:





You are really making me work for this one, Steve. It took me 10 years to accumulate 600 posts, averaging under 5 posts per month, and this is already my third on this topic this week!

Gene T

[Collectinsteve]

Heh

Well, for sure what you've laid out is the most logical case. Your panorama picture did the trick for me. As you say, there's a lack of depth perception clues here and it's even possible that the camera's focus/lens is also distorting the depth even further. In addition to the detailed examination you pointed to (especially the button holes!), look at the trooper standing near the tent on the right. He's "tiny" compared to the multi sectional tent that I was focused on, yet he appears to be reasonably close to the tent on the right. Then compare that to how close the troopers on the left are. It's the sort of stuff that convinces me that there's more out there than we know about.

It just looked so... odd! We know so very little about limited runs of experimental items from this time period that I wondered if they experimented with a larger pattern. It wouldn't be the first time that evidence of something unusual is seen for the first time here on this forum. Last year someone posted a picture of a BW Splittertarn jacket that I suspected existed, but except for one photo posted here never documented as far as I know. Then there's 1959 BW snow camouflage trials that show a set that the only evidence is from one book's photos of it in use.

Anyway, I'm more than happy to say "dang! my bad" and let you get back to posting once in a blue moon Thanks for taking the time to dig into this. I really thought we were seeing something not seen elsewhere.

Steve