West German Helmets

[G-ASGK]

Every BW M1 clone I've ever seen looked like they had been dragged behind a tank. Horribly battered condition to both liner, shell and straps. This one is the best I've ever seen.

[PASSAUER8884]

TJ, et all-

FJ-60 is this the same as the "M60"? Just learning my definitions

Daniel

[Collectinsteve]

There's a bunch of different "M1" types, but I'm fuzzy on the designations. Here they are:

1. Two piece, simple cloth chin strap
2. One piece, simple cloth chin strap
3. One piece, cross behind head leather chin strap (FJ only)
4. One piece, cross behind head cloth strap (standard issue)

I think that's the main types. I know that there were a couple of variations early on, such as remanufactured older shells.

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

I've been browsing Ludwig Baer's volume 2 and I need more time to digest it but so far here is what I think is being said about BW helmets in his book.
1-the first helmet used by the BW is the one that TJ posted and is not given any specific designation in Baer's book. A two piece helmet very similar to the U.S. M1. He shows many design darwings of this first helmet and it is simply called "Stahlhelm" or "Helm". The drawings are all referenced by VTL 8415. The VTL stands for "Vorläufige Technische Lieferbedingungen".
2-The next helmet he references is the one piece M1 clone with the large threaded bolt at the top to hold the liner in place. The drawings for this helmet are also marked VTL 8415 but are named "Stahlhelm M1A1". This helmet has a single cloth chin strap.
3-The next one he references is the FJ 60 which is the same as the M1A1 but with a different liner. Same chin strap. This part is a bit fuzzy and I need more work on this one.
4-The next one is the M1A1 Modifiziert which is the M1A1 but with a three point chinstrap.
5-The last helmet he talks about that has the M1 shape is called "Stahlhelm
für Luftlandetruppe" which, as he terms it, is a "NATO shape" and has the three point chin strap we are familiar with.

Finally, congratulations TJ on getting such an excellent example of this early helmet that is marked so well. I t is a real asset to this thread.

Regards,

Gordon

[Guardian 5]

Gents - Thanks for your kind comments. I am fortunate indeed to have scored such a nice lid.

Daniel - There is some erroneous information contained in my writing on the post-war German helmet. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clear this up.

Steve - I hope you don't mind if I expand upon your effort in order to correct my earlier mistake. The official designations that you'll see below are taken from Ludwig Baer. Herr Baer took the designations from the original Bundeswehr drawings.

Gordon - We were "dual moding", i.e., writing about the same subject at the same time. See below for my interpretation of Baer's work. As always, thanks for the helping hand.

1. zweiteiligen Stahlelm. The German copy of the standard U.S. steel helmet originally fielded by the U.S. in World War II. Also known as the zweitel Ausfürung or Helmet Model 56 (Helm Modell 56). Two piece, simple cloth chin strap. Worn from 1956-1960.

2. Stahlhelm 1A1. This helmet is also known as the Helm, Bodentruppen, Modell M1A1. In some collector's circles, it is described as the M60. One piece, simple cloth chin strap. This helmet can be found with two different liners. The version with the FJ-60 liner, made by Firma Römer, is immediately distinguishable by four external rivet grommets. These are used to anchor a nine tongued leather crown that was originally developed for use in the the M-35/53 BGS / Polizei helmet. The crown is fastened in place by a fiber glass band. Four cork spacers found on the end of the rivets keep the band securely in place. The top-mounted I-60 liner made by Schuberth features a moulded polyethylene cup with five descending bands. This helmet was worn from 1960 until the adoption of the Gefechtshelme, Modell B 826 in the early 1990s.

3. Stahlhelm 1A1 modifiziert . This helmet is sometimes referred to as the M62. One piece, cross behind head cloth strap (standard issue). This helmet, featuring a more robust chin and neck strap, was fully intended to replace the original Stahlhelm 1A1 but never did. Both versions would serve side-by-side until declared obsolete.

4. Stahlhelm Modell Luftlandtruppe. One piece, cross behind head leather chin strap (FJ only). This paratrooper helmet features a 1A1 shell with a liner inspired by the wartime model. It was only adopted after extensive trials. Gordon owns one of the experimental models. It is described earlier in the thread.

Gents, I hope this clears up the earlier mis-information.

All the best - TJ

[PASSAUER8884]

Ahhhhh, I see now. I had been thinking that the model with the
FJ-60 9-tounge liner with the external rivets dubbed "M60" was the first model, then the model sometimes dubbed "M62" with the top mounted I-60 liner was a later model. But in fact they are the a variation of the same thing.

I have noticed that you dont see many with the FJ-60 liner, 9 of 10 survivors are the I-60 version with only the chinstrap rivets on the outside, did the FJ-60 have a shorter production run?

[PASSAUER8884]

I also had the definition of "M62" wrong in my reply

I had also had the incorrect belief that the I-60 was the "M62" and the model with the cross-behind cloth staps were a later modification or update of older "M62s" that had the singe pice simple straps.....wow I was a little off

But the question remains, why so few FJ-60s?

[Bernhard]

My fellow collectors,

For all of you interrested in the different Bundeswehr helmets a look
here might be also of interrest :

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=bundeswehr+M1

and much more details can be found on this excellent french site :


http://www.world-war-helmets.com/cou...hp?q=allemagne

Best regards

Bernhard

[Gordon Craig]

Bernhard,

Thanks for reminding us of your excellent thread! Really fleshes out what TJ and I have said about the designations of different helmets. I hope that your helmet collecting goes well.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

TJ,

Great job in listing the different type of M1 shaped helmets used by the BW. I hope that on the forum we can stick to the names that the BW used for these helmets and not some arbitrary M60 etc designations that some unknown collector has started to use in the past. Some of these terms are well documented in Baer's book by the publishing of the shipping labels on boxes. Since these books are log out of print I think that it is reasonable to post these labels here on the forum from Baer's Volume II. No doubt he is correct about all of the designations that he uses.

Regards,

Gordon

[Guardian 5]

Daniel - No stress man; we're learning together!

I'm afraid that my command of German is very poor. From what I can puzzle out of Baer regarding the low production run of the FJ-60 liner, it would seem that the I-60 was easier to manufacture (one rivet vice four). I know too from personal experience that the cork spacers in the FJ-53 and FJ-60 liners have a tendency to disinegrate over time. Everytime I pick up my Baden-Wuerttemberg Polizei M-35/53 I am greated by a shower of cork fragments. There are other reasons cited and I hope German readers will come to our rescue.

Bernhard - Thanks for linking us back to your thread with its outstanding photography. I found the the French site very informative and cleverly contructed as well. Danke!

Gordon - I am in total agreement regarding the discrete use of material from Baer's book. Very rarely does the Bundeswehr provide us with the correct nomenclature for a given piece of equipment. Usually it's left up to the hobbyist to puzzle it out for themselves or simply make it up. I also agree that when the official name does comes to light, we should stop using the provisional names.

All the best - TJ

[PASSAUER8884]

So, If lhave learned anything, what I have here is:

Stahlhelm 1A1 with the FJ-60 liner by Firma Romer.

This one has all four cork disks but one of the ends of a "connecting arm" in the front has broken where it meets the rivet, I can see how this liner, also more complicated its also more fragile. Oh and sorry about the lousy photos.. I need a helmet stand.

[Guardian 5]

Daniel - Yes Sir! Nice lid.

My Stahlehlm 1A1 with FJ-60 liner also has a textured finish.

I'm interested in the writing on the liner of your example. I'm wondering if "Pit
Layer" was a soldier's knickname, a former miner perhaps?

"H'fels" is a contraction of Hohenfels, a large maneuver area in Bavaria, about 20km from the Czech border. Maybe the Pit Layer went on a field exercise there in 1974. Stetten is a small town in Bavaria, his home town or duty station?

All the best - TJ

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

My FJ60 also has the rough surface exterior. I guess I am lucky though as the cork separators, bolts and liner on my helmet are all in excellent shape. I would hazard a guess that Stettin was his duty station and that a little research on what units were stationed in Stettin in 1976 would add some interest to the helmet.

Regards,

Gordon

[PASSAUER8884]

Gordon, TJ

Yeah the writing in the liner adds alot of "character" to a item like that. I have been through Hohenfels once years back (my parents are from Bavaria) but it was long before I was a collector so not much attention was paid by me.

As for "Pit Layer"... Thats one for the ages, anyones guess.