Ivory handle Ghurka knife question

[juoneen]

DO NOT BE FOOLED!! good one

This gurkha knife I suspect is an exceptional military version, likely a special issue to someone of high stature in one of the indian military outfits, at this time I cannot recall as to the specific name, but it relates to the blade engraving, and buttons and wreath added to the scabbard. This one is NOT a civilian tourist trap version at all...do not be fooled. This is an important knife and due to the artsy fartsy angles of the photos , its hard to say more, but usually military versions have a broad arrow proof somewhere on the blade.... I will post an officers buckle showing the same insignia , and unless you collect gurkha stuff, are seldom seen. This knife would go good with the buckle, of course the buckle is not for sale. The emblems on the engraving I believe shows high rank , and the marks are not meaningless. Thats also the reason the blade has high quality sharp steel...this is very nice,and seldom seen in this grade , but indian collectors will know more when they finally look deeper into it, if any are here. I think its a great find , and could be an ivory handle the way it looks, although bone at times is similar, but the whiteness makes me feel its ivory, and saved for use on the best knives. More help is needed to correct more specificly , my close description to nail it exact...I think Im on the right track though.Owner may have been a ww2 guy who continued on into the post war years, who knows why the coins were glued to the scabbard . The truth as far as I have always heard is real gurkhas never were to draw the knife to use without it drawing blood, there is a special place at the base of the blade where the owner can cut himself if drawn where it requires a self sacrifice(although pertains to military drawing the weapon not civilian).(not shown if it has the feature, so more photos are needed and both sides of the blade. May want to send photos to ask historians in India relating to military gurkha veteran groups to see what their input may be .









Like I said, can't recall the division, but it is an emblem used for a gurkha regiment, seems three sticks out in my mind, so don't sell this one right off without searching well to be sure before finding out for sure if it is a tourist version or not or you may be getting played....I think there needs to be a three day rule, don't sell anything here until you have owned it three days , and make sure you are 100% positive before you turn things loose, as many times you can be misled by those who know more than you, as I am pointing out here, I recognize it as a great find,so anyway... congratulations, and you may find it belonged to a general (one never knows)? This is the beginning of a quest for info....(send comission to me later for steering you straight..haha (not sure which way is up or downfor the emblem on the buckle, so posted buckle going in both directions ) Good eye!

[nickn]

its bone
why would an indian army post 48 knife have a broard arrow proof mark??

[peter monahan]

Juoneen

I'm afraid you are mistaken about a couple of things.

The buckle does indeed have a device which also appears in the badge of the 3rd gurkha Rifles. [see here: http://www.britishempire.co.uk/force...rdgurkhas.htm] But it does NOT appear without the crossed kukris. The wreath you refer to is not part of their officers' badges, nor is it in the style of Indian [British] wreaths.

The 'blood letting' is a myth. my source for that is Lt. Col. Anthony Mains, ex 9th Gurkha rifles, who served with them from 1936 to 1945 qand with the Indian Army until 1950. He was a personal friend for many years.

While I don't claim to be a huge expert on Kukris, I was a founding member of the Indian Military History Society and have studied Indian military history for over 30 years. Yes, many officers were given presentation kukris on leaving their units. The example here is NOT one of those! While it is a fine example, it is in fact a civilian piece. No example I have seen of a presentation piece had a decorated sheath, except i think for one which had the cap badge of the regiment attached to it.

You can test the handle, BTW, to see if it is ivory. "Whiteness' in fact suggests bone, as ivory yellows with age. Hold a lit match to a small inconspicious spot on the handle. If it is bone it will start to blacken, if ivory it will stay white while getting hot enough to raise a blister. [Ask me how I know! ].

Sadly, ther is a lot of nonsense out there about the Gurkhas, as thjere seems to be in the collecting world about most 'elite' units. They were damn fine soldiers but they were, as my earlier post suggests, just soldiers when all is said and done, not supermen or bloodythirsty savages who drew blood every time they unsheathed a weapon. Read "Bugles and a Tiger" by John Masters, who served with the GR for many years. He talks about his men clearing brush with their kukris. One lopped a thumb off by accident, but that was the blood shed, not some semi-mystical 'ceremony'. If they drew blood every time they cut wood, killed an animal or had their blades inspected by their NCOs - a daily occurrence - there would be a lot of very scarred Gurkhas out there. Sorry, a good story, but just not true! And they are fine soldiers even without the mythology!

My tuppence and more!

Peter

[nickn]

you dont have to test it you can see the blood vessels its bone

[JamesT]

Hi Juoneen
your buckle is for the 3rd Queen Alexandra's Own Gurkha Rifles. Not sure if it is an officer's or other rank's buckle but it shows the cypher of Queen Alexandra. Alexandra of Denmark was the wife and queen-empress consort of King Edward VII of the United Kingdom and the British Dominions, Emperor of India. It is intertwined As so in your bottom picture is upside down. Picture of the cap badge shown below - a rather cruder version of the cypher than on your buckle.

You are quite wrong about the drawing blood myth. Peter Monahan puts it very clearly and correctly in his answers. The notch on the blade you refer to is very commonly found on knives without cross-guards and is designed to stop drips of liquid running onto the handle and making it slippery.

All the best

James

[Military Trader]

Thanks to all who have contributed so far. I learn something everytime in one of these discussions. If more pictures are needed for evaluation please let let me know.

I can not find the arrow (for British military) anywhere on this blade. The handle is probably bone as you all say but the other side of the handle (not shown) is much more yellowed. I assume bone also yellows?

I probably shouldn't have picked this one up but it had a different feel and look than cheaper ones I've seen although it wasn't the standard military one I knew. I was gambling that it was something special. The blade seems to be a better blade than the tourist ones I've seen. It is heavier and doesn't have that gloss apperence. Also most of them wouldn't take an edge BUT it might just be this one is earlier so a somewhat better blade.

If this one is totally junk tourist I assume it is of little value (as most tourist pieces are about $40 - $60 if you're lucky) so I'll probablly stick it in a small local antique mall booth to try and get some of my money back. But as I said if anyone needs more pictures let me know. Again thanks for the interesting lessons in Ghurka knives.

[Bond]

you dont have to test it you can see the blood vessels its bone

Exactly.

[peter monahan]

Its certainly not valueless - a very nice example of the non-military type and perhaps worth more to someone who collects 'ethnic' knives/curiosities than to a military collector. Good Luck. Still a very nice piece.

Peter

[yellow]

During WW1 the Gurkhas did not always use unit marked / ordinance marked Kurkris. For some regiments those knives were in short supply and the men had to source their own....or get a regimental smith to make them.

Take a closer look at the examples at the Gurkha museum on their WW1 display (see pic below).......horn and bone handles.........with no markings of any kind.

[peter monahan]

Thanks for that info., Yellow. I'm surprised that private purchase was necessary, but if they're in the Gurkha Museum then they must be correct!

Peter