Regular Infantry of the Line 1914

[Jim Maclean]

I've compared my no scroll badge with my Father's old Cameron badge and they're definitely different alloys. The WW2 badge has a coppery tinge to it that the no scroll badge hasn't. Does yours show that small flaw at the base of the cross on the right.

I agree about the Connaught badge on the left, the crown looks slightly squatter than the other two. They look more like the one I posted, I hope they're good.

[leigh kitchen]

I compared the tiny flaws at the bottom right of the cross on your Cameron no scroll with mine when I posted - mine has just the one flaw, bottom right. The reverse of the badge is smooth if that makes sense? It's not worn on the back, it's just that the metal "flows" without clearly defined detail, no sharp detail etc. But then fakes can be struck from newly cut dies or original dies, so ultimately no definitive way of telling - if yours is from a different die to mine it does'nt necessarily mean that either is a fake. A reasonable indicator I feel is when badges are clearly struck from the same die, but with deterioration in the strike in the form of blobs etc due to wear etc on the die - again though, if a pattern of badge is in use for decades ............

[max7474]

...........& for your opinion, the Connaught Ranger's badges that we discussed.
The one on the left is a nicely made little piece with wire reinforced weak points where the crown joins the harp. To me, it's undoubtedly genuineThe middle badge is much like the one on the right, other than the unvoided strings to the harp, they are quite possibly from the same die, the one on the right was aquired during the early 80's, the middle badge about 20 years later.
The one on the right is of a more yellow metal than the others & the slider is affixed by means, I think, of silver solder. You may be correct when you suggest that it could be WWI brass economy issue, but I'm not convinced that it isn't fake.

For what its worth the originals all had a void between the crown and the harp as with the first badge and often but not always had the reinforcement wire (as for the Royal Irish) The other 2 are copies and lack this small but significant detail. Brass economy were made primarily to save white nickel rather than a simpler design so I would not subscribe to the economy theory.

[leigh kitchen]

For what its worth the originals all had a void between the crown and the harp as with the first badge and often but not always had the reinforcement wire (as for the Royal Irish) The other 2 are copies and lack this small but significant detail. Brass economy were made primarily to save white nickel rather than a simpler design so I would not subscribe to the economy theory.

I would'nt dispute your comments other than re lack of voiding not being n economy measure - some WWI economy badges are noted for being unvoided, there by saving time on fretting etc - eg the RE & the RA.

[max7474]

I would'nt dispute your comments other than re lack of voiding not being n economy measure - some WWI economy badges are noted for being unvoided, there by saving time on fretting etc - eg the RE & the RA.

Absolutely true and as they were of 100% brass which has aged they are much darker than the restrikes as the latter have a higher copper content and are more yellowish in colour or have been artifically blackened which are obvious once you have seen an original all brass badge. My point about the voiding is why not have the void between the crown and harp but void the strings and/or the crown?

[Keith Blakeman]

I'm posting this as I've never been able to compare it to another. Perhaps someone out there has one and can give me an opinion. Nothing tragically wrong to my eyes, but......

Lovely badge Jim.

I don't intend to post any pictures of my no scroll badge here but would only like to express how useful a forum this is for collectors to compare their wares which would be almost impossible otherwise.

I checked mine straight away and nothing untoward, not as nicely stamped as Jim's, metal looks OK, nice patina, etc. It was only when comparing with the brass economy version I have that I realised they are identical and I mean identical, everything about them, wear, patina the lot!!

How can this be ? An 1880's badge die, being re-used in 1916 with the same amount of wear? I don't think so somehow. I now have two of what I thought half an hour ago were genuine Cameronians badges assigned to the restrike box.

Onto the Connaught Rangers, now this could be costly.

Keith

[Keith Blakeman]

Lovely badge Jim.

Onto the Connaught Rangers, now this could be costly.

Keith

It's OK folks, rest assured this one is a good 'un. Doesn't have the reinforcing 'U' bar to the crown and harp but everything else seems to be fine. No point in showing the front, everything with this badge (and plenty of others) is all about the rear. In this case the clear reverse stamping of the scroll and the solid non-Gaunt slider. And of course the above mentioned void only just visible to the right of the slider.

Phew !!

Keith

[leigh kitchen]

Absolutely true and as they were of 100% brass which has aged they are much darker than the restrikes as the latter have a higher copper content and are more yellowish in colour or have been artifically blackened which are obvious once you have seen an original all brass badge. My point about the voiding is why not have the void between the crown and harp but void the strings and/or the crown?

Aaaahhhhhh gotcha.
I still feel that it's the sort of thing that can happen, perhaps through lack of attention, poor quality control etc.
Of the 3 x Connaught badges that I posted, I feel that the left hand one is genuine, the right hand fake, the middle I'll have to re-examine & perhaps post larger photos.
I can't "picture" the middle badge now, & can't remember whether I had it marked out as genuine or dubious.

[Jim Maclean]

Absolutely true and as they were of 100% brass which has aged they are much darker than the restrikes as the latter have a higher copper content and are more yellowish in colour or have been artifically blackened which are obvious once you have seen an original all brass badge. My point about the voiding is why not have the void between the crown and harp but void the strings and/or the crown?

I can't help feeling that the textbooks have clouded the issue somewhat by referring to 'gilding metal' and then 'all brass economy' etc.

Brass is an alloy of copper(Cu) and zinc(Zn). Gilding metal is an alloy of copper and zinc so it is therefore brass. Gilding metal is also not a specific alloy, it can contain 10 to 20% Zn. Increasing the Zn to 30% we get 'cartridge brass', 34% gives us what is known as 'yellow brass'. Any further increases in zinc makes the brass less suitable for stamping and more suitable for machining.

I have been told, but have yet to substantiate, that around the WW1 period Gaunt were using ten different 'gilding metal' specifications. It is reasonable to assume that there will be quite a number of variations in colour. It would also be useful to know the composition of the 'brass' used for economy badges. My feeling is anything they could get and that many times it would fall into the classification of 'gilding metal, as has been pointed out it was the nickel that was important.

As far as voiding of the harp strings on the Connaughts goes, I remain to be convinced that they all should be or that unvoided is WW1 economy.

[max7474]

Wiltshire Cap Badge

Unchanged until 1954 when the present D of E became the Col in Chief, when the Coronet and monogram changed.

Hi, This badge appears to be blackened with wear to the high points. I have 2 of these badges - one in plain brazing metal and one which is blackened brass to the front and back from the 4th Territorial Bn. My point is if the originial blacking was put there originally then it is probably the 4th Bn and a lot scarcer. Clearly it easy for a forger to blacken a norman brass badge which is why I would be interested in a close look at the back. I have found a good way to spot restrikes is that the originals had been painted with a very dark brown undercoat and then a black top coat both of which tend to have worn through on the high points.