1st pattern denison smock with unusual features

[SMP]

Hi,
Just wondering why you think the zip is a post war addition,it is widely accepted,indeed documented in period photos, that full zippers were added and as I have said I have a one that the servicemans Mother sewed in for him.
I there something I have missed that makes the zip a post war addition.
Regards,Ivan

As stated, most full zip conversions were done post-war. That is fact. Paras, TA and even CCF cadets did it. No para would have been allowed to do it during the war. Officers were a different matter, but lots of the officer Denisons seen in war time photos ( like Monty's and Gen Gale) are AM smocks and not converted Denisons. The one one you mention is probably one of the very few true war-time conversions.

Just curious - what zip did his mum use, and how did she get hold of it ?

[kammo man]

Love these debates !

owen

[Beau Brummel.]

This does Indeed look like a 70's modified piece and the labels do tend to hint at this being a surplus piece that was acquired for film use.

The elasticated or draw string hem is a common conversion. The ape tail Is probably a replacement due to the original being removed.

The hoary old bone of contention that Is full zip conversions for officers Is doing the rounds again I see. I will qualify that by adding that smocks were converted during WW2 but I think this Is actually far rarer than one would be led to believe. As we all know a full zip conversion is the kiss of death on a wartime smock, as a result of this the "officers conversion" has long been used as a damage limitation excercise by the unscrupulous. I have owned several smocks that I was certain were modified during the conflict but was not able to prove it beyond doubt. Ivans example with provenance dating the conversion to WW2 Is a rare beast Indeed and one to be treasured. As Steve has said Andy, the photographs you reference are not converted smocks but rather Air Ministry pieces.

Owen has a smock which from the photographs does appear to be a factory piece with a full zip; Ken joyce referenced some documentation a while ago which mentioned the ongoing evolution of these smocks during WW2; it seems that small batches were the subject of various modifications and then given to the troops for extended field trials. I suspect Owens piece Is one of these.

As for all post war smocks having chrome neweys well, again I have to take Issue with you. It Is not that uncommon to find 46 pattern smocks (which look dangerously like 1'st patterns) with the brass Newey Goodman patent snap. I believe the companies were simply using up their old stock of hardware. Indeed I have had a 59 pattern smock from the late 60's with brass snaps; I believe they probably had their contract revoked with the cessation of hostilities and then gained another contract many years later.

Hope that helps, Guy.

[andrew b]

hi Ivan
a good debate is alway healthy as there is so much out there we dont know and we are so quick to dismiss if its not 100% correct , I have taken some better photos of the cuffs and the bottom of ape tail and around the zip the cuffs from the hem measure just under 1 and half inch { 40 mm },to the end

ps i am in the same opinion as you , what reason do we have to say the zip is post war added , I know militaria said ww2 materials were used to repair smocks but would they go to the full extent and use the same cotton

[andrew b]

bottom around zip and ape tail

[Beau Brummel.]

Oh, a couple more points;

DZ flashes are a post war thing so your smock was being used post war. The pegasus is the type of reproduction available In surplus shops since the 70's.

Similarly I'm not sure that the full zip evolved as a result of over the head frightfulness. It's more likely that It evolved due to wounds and the very real risk of landing badly and breaking arms etc. A smock cut garment would have to be cut off and that takes time.

No one Is knocking your smock, they are just advising you to be aware that this piece has had a long and chequered career and we can't really know when the mods were done. I personally do not believe that the modifications are the result of film usage but rather that this came out of Inventory as surplus and was then acquired by the costumiers.

Guy.

[andrew b]

just to add another spanner in the works , I have put some inside photos of the zip and front top , as you can clearly see the smock has not just been cut and divided and a zip put in the middle , it has a wind flap added to stop the zip rubbing or catching inside and on the lower part it has again differant materials as it has been joinned , again I ask , if only for a film , why go to so much extent with same cotton etc , would like to know if any one elses full zip smock has the same details

[Beau Brummel.]

ps i am in the same opinion as you , what reason do we have to say the zip is post war added , I know militaria said ww2 materials were used to repair smocks but would they go to the full extent and use the same cotton

If the modifications were undertaken whilst In military service then yes. One see's the tan/bone coloured thread used extensively.

[andrew b]

hi Guy , nice to see you adding to the thread , I do except that it was probably used in films as for the angels badge and I know the DZ patches are post war , this is undisbuted , its all the other little mods that is the debate ,like zip , ape tail etc even the labels under the sleeves which all look period done , just because a smock came from a film makers it is totally wrong to write the mods off when these features are documented in ww2

[andrew b]

thanks for your input Guy it is alway valuable and you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the newey studs on post war , like I said it is common knowledge about the post war nickel studs and you pointed that their are a few with brass which is the exception to the norm , but how easily could these be dismissed unless somebody like yourself sees them , if you know what i am trying to say , as for the reason for the full lenght zip well thats another debate
hope your keeping well and have you still got your AM smock

[Beau Brummel.]

With the greatest of respect andy, I am not writing off the mods, just saying we don't know when they were done.

The bottom hem Is a COMMON 60's and 70's conversion, often a small piece of elastic Is let Into teh mid back as well to give a much neater and more tailored appearance, more akin to the later para smock.

Ok, bear with me here; we know that uniforms were collected, repaired then re-Issued right? I personally feel the ape tail Is probably a wartime repair before re-Issue. The full zip conversion COULD have been done wartime, the extra labels may actually hint at this but there Is no way of knowing with the Information we currently have. The zip Is an old one and looks to have come from a Sidcott or similar and this sort of hints at the conversion being done in the 40's or 50's but again, we can not be sure.

You would be wrong to assume that I am writing the smock off due to where It comes from. It Is a very nice piece which I am sure has had a very Interesting career, we just can't know when the mods were done, we can guess but not be sure.

All good here, hope the same go's for you too. Still part caretaker of the AM but she's not currently living with me

Yours, Guy.

A

[andrew b]

thanks guy your input is always appreciated and I do hear what you say , we cant put a date on the mods which is correct and i do except that , its just when you post something different it immediately gets knocked down , anyway found these phots of major gale in his AM smock but look to his side , both smocks are full zippers , can you make out if AM or denison , I know Gales and Montys were tailor made but these just look like genaral soldiers

[Beau Brummel.]

Hi Andy,

No one was knocking the piece down, they were simply giving you their opinions and the benefit of their knowledge, which after all you did ask for.

The photo of Gale with the young man with the converted smock Is a well known one and does show a converrted Denison In use I believe. You will have to dig a bit deeper as my memory fails me but I think the fellow In question Is an officer.

The smock that Gale Is wearing Is an AM Identical to the one I show. Brownings was a different thing entirely and cut much more like a bone sack. There are at least 2 of those about as Brownings was on display at Aldershot and I encountered another In the hands of a collector. Sadly, try as I might I could not get him to part with it .

Yours, Guy

[andrew b]

the smock is back to normal now , dz badges and angels label all removed , the conclusion and thank you to everyone is that it is a genuine ww2 1st pat smock that was modified with full zip and ape tail and label under arms { ps these are the same material as the label which has airbourne smock and size but faded } after service in was owned by angels and berman for costume hire and then sold to the open market
I have learnt a few things which i didnt know which is good in a debate but still would like to hear about the full zipper and how it is attached , if any one has answers and ivan about the cuffs , thanks again to all

ps one last thing , why do people run away from full zip smocks when they be legit and why does this affect the price so much
regards
andy

[Kiwi Ric]

Andy most people run from them due to the fact 95% of them are post war addons, just like the windproof smocks that have the full zip.

Clear lable, txt book cond eg no zips no removed tail, clear WD stamp etc, makes a high end smock and thus very desirable.

as a collector and the few 1st and second pattern smocks I had, I never had a full zip. as I didnt stumble onto one with prov.

Unless one had a AM stamp etc. or it came from the vets family or vet. I would dodge them.

but that is just my personal view

love the colour of your smock,

Regards

-R