1st pattern denison smock with unusual features

[SMP]

Angels didn't acquire Bermans till 1992, so the label is modern.

http://www.angels.uk.com/history.html

I don't believe anyone said the smock was fake.

Personally I think it has been post-war modified for the film industry.

[kammo man]

Love the tail .

owen

[militaria2000]

I didnt say the smock was fake. in the early 70s loads of smocks were turning up in army surplus shops all pats ww2 and post war lots of them had been modified by the military,soldiers and soldiers wives .a lot of these ended up at Burman and Nathans and M Angels both costume firms if you look at the smocks in BTF you will see every pat of denison ever produced from WW2 and after yours is one of these the last one came out of Angels about 2 years ago in a large sale they were £20 each

[SMP]

...the last one came out of Angels about 2 years ago in a large sale they were £20 each

Did you get any ?

[militaria2000]

yes got 3. 2 44 dated and one 1950s. The guy in front got about 8 but it was crazy there were hundreds of tunics of all typs but hundreds of customers again of all typs all pushing to be in front also got 2 para helmets and 4 early US helmets any coat was £20 helmet £20 trousers £10 shirt £10 saw a Dutch dealer get 3 original German Police tunics not bad for £60 the 3 by the way it wasnt all original stuff a lot of film prop uniforms with original WW1 and WW2 mixed in

[SMP]

yes got 3. 2 44 dated and one 1950s. The guy in front got about 8 but it was crazy there were hundreds of tunics of all typs but hundreds of customers again of all typs all pushing to be in front also got 2 para helmets and 4 early US helmets any coat was £20 helmet £20 trousers £10 shirt £10 saw a Dutch dealer get 3 original German Police tunics not bad for £60 the 3 by the way it wasnt all original stuff a lot of film prop uniforms with original WW1 and WW2 mixed in

Great story

[andrew b]

smock

thanks guys for the info on angels , that is one question answered , any info on the other details or do you think it was all modified by them post war , but if so one question is haunting me ,

If post war modified and just for the film industry , why would they use original WW2 materials, IE Full DOT zip , Brass neweys on the ape tail , and windproof smock material etc , why didnt they use general run of the mill material they had as they were a clothing manufacturer and no one would see these close up details on the film , this is why i personally dont think it is postwar modified and could be a genuine ww2 modified officer smock

ps love the story of the sale , I bet they were dealers from every corner of the globe

[SMP]

The ape tail may have been lengthened to fit a particular actor ( star ?). They may have found a bit of old camo and re-used the original Neweys.

Of course we will never know ( unless you can spot that actual smock in a film) - maybe it is war-time tailored, but don't put too much faith in it.

Does the blue hem strip contain elastic or a draw string ?

Can someone confirm the Pegasus flash is fake ?

[militaria2000]

a lot of the items in the sale had been altered using original material and parts eg WW1 ish British tunics into WW1 US tunics with original buttons and insignia some denisons with newish repairs using original camo material as well as windproof camo all the material probably came from tunics damaged in films yes there were lots of dealers i saw the guy from Pegasus going through loads of para/dispatch riders helmets looking for good ones the denison in question i think is a post war army mod with a bit of filmwork mod at a later date not a officers one

[andrew b]

the denison in question i think is a post war army mod with a bit of filmwork mod at a later date not a officers one[/QUOTE]

sorry militaria , I have to disagree with you on this part , the smock is 100% genuine ww2 , post war smocks 1946 onwards in the 1st pattern design all had knickel newey press studs fitted as these were cheaper to produce and the ape tail had two knickel fasteners on the back of the smock to hold the ape tail in place when not in use , this smock has genuine untouched brass neweys and no holding studs on the back , which conforms to a ww2 1st pattern smock , it was only the second pattern that introduced the brass hold studs
like i mentioned i have had lots of denisons in my collection over the years and know post war and tampered with
best regards
Andy

ps
in a previous thread {DENISON SMOCK MATERIALS} there is a photo of one of my old smocks with two differant types of material used , I know it could be post war added as mentioned or it could be genuine as there was a war on and any materials were used , these smocks were made for fighting , not for us 70 years on to dismiss because its not 100% tex book , even german uniforms used differant materials due to shortage , so I am sorry but i cant right this part of the smock off , plus when we are talking about officers at war time , the last thing they wanted was to look like a genaral soldier thats why they had thier smocks altered so they stood out , we are not talking one offs , it was common practise

[grip3846]

Smock

Hi Andrew,
Take a look at this thread I posted sometime ago,my 1st pattern has an unusual modification too.
Just a question,didn't drop zone patches come in post war? My memory is playing tricks and I can't quite recall.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=denison+smock
Regards,Ivan

[andrew b]

thanks Ivan
it was a very interesting read and like you i never say never, as for the dz badges i am in the opinion these were added later {post war} but as for the other items , they look like yours , period done , due to the materials and the way that they have been finished .If you look at one of the pictures in the link , other full length zip smocks can clearly be seen as well as major Gales
thanks for that link
best regards
Andy

[grip3846]

No Problem

Hi Andy,
It is not disputed that Officers had full length zips put in their smocks,I have one that comes with provenance,his Mother put the zip in,she was a tie maker during the War. The tail was removed,usually by Glider borne troops who would not decamp under silk hence no use for the tail. Why yours has SAS windproof material is both unusual and unique in my dealings with denisons. It is without doubt a wartime piece and if I had to throw my hat in the ring then I would say used in films hence the patches. I would also say copy pegasus. I would also like to muddy the waters re the sleeve cuffs....Original or sock tops,can you show the inside of the sleeve where it meets the cuff. Both my 1st patterns have shorter cuffs than yours. I like your smock very much,it sure is causing some debate which is very healthy IMO.
Regards,Ivan

[militaria2000]

Andrew i am not saying your smock is not WW2 i am saying probably the zip has been added post war i have seen lots like that in 4 para during the 70s the other mods are probably Angels costume dept repairs/mods again 1970s for film work not just WW2 films but others like Bloody Sunday showing paras in NI hence the DZ patch and repro pegasus patch

[grip3846]

Andrew i am not saying your smock is not WW2 i am saying probably the zip has been added post war i have seen lots like that in 4 para during the 70s the other mods are probably Angels costume dept repairs/mods again 1970s for film work not just WW2 films but others like Bloody Sunday showing paras in NI hence the DZ patch and repro pegasus patch

Hi,
Just wondering why you think the zip is a post war addition,it is widely accepted,indeed documented in period photos, that full zippers were added and as I have said I have a one that the servicemans Mother sewed in for him.
I there something I have missed that makes the zip a post war addition.
Regards,Ivan