Royal Navy Admiral of the Fleet shoulder boards - whose?

[achern]

Thanks, Steen and Jim. All very interesting information to digest.

Have you seen Lord Mountbatten's shoulder boards? I found a very small picture on the internet that showed him with the Admiral of the Fleet insignia, and apparently three cyphers at the bottom, arranged in a triangle.

Here it is:


and another one:


Can you make out what those three small devices at the bottom are?

Also, here are some of Cunningham. There seems to be something in that space between the crossed batons at the bottom and the crown at the top, but it is very fuzzy due to the tiny picture.





And finally, one of Jonathon Band and one of Mark Stanhope for modern reference, where the cypher is definitely at the bottom of the boards:





These pictures don't belong to me and this post is only for academic purposes.

[Steen Ammentorp]

Though not my field of expertice I got interested and found this:

[quote]
Royal Cyphers
a. The Royal Cypher is available in large, small and miniature sizes. It is worn by:
(1) Admirals of the Fleet.
(2) Officers holding the posts of Vice and Rear Admirals of the United Kingdom.
(3) Aides-de-Camp to The Queen.
(4) Honorary Physicians, Surgeons, Dental Surgeons, Nursing Officers and
Chaplains to The Queen Naval Equerries to The Queen Defence Services
Secretary.
b. In the cases of Personal Aides-de-Camp to The Queen, First and Principal Naval
and Flag Aides-de-Camp to The Queen, the Officers concerned continue to wear the
Cypher after relinquishing the appointment. If he or she has held the appointment
under more than one Sovereign then the Cypher of each shall be worn.
c. The large Cypher is worn on aiguillette shoulder straps, including the additional
strap worn with the broad riband or collar of orders.
d. The small Cypher is worn on both shoulder boards of the greatcoat, all white and
khaki uniforms and on the shoulder rank slides worn with jerseys. It is placed at the
foot of the gold lace for officers of Flag rank and superimposed on the lowest row of
lace for other Officers, with the bottom of the Cypher even with the lower edge of lace.
For chaplains the Cypher should be 0.32cm above the bottom edge of the shoulder
strap. The chaplains insignia is placed immediately above the Cypher.
e. The miniature Cypher is worn on the metal tags of aiguillettes by Personal Aidesde-
Camp, Equerries and Extra Equerries to The Queen, and the Defence Service
Secretary.
f. Personal Aides-de-Camp wear the small Cypher on all shoulder boards and soft
rank insignia.
g. When the Cyphers of more than one Sovereign are worn, the small Cypher shall
be worn in each case.
[/qoute]
Source: http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/upload/p...1book/ch03.pdf

Don't know whether is was the case in 1952 though. It does explains Mountbattens 3 Cyphers.

[achern]

Thanks! That's a really interesting bit of information. Let's try some elimination:

This admiral of the fleet served under George VI, presumably, because of the crown.

He also served under QEII, because of the cypher.

This admiral may or may not have been ADC to both King and Queen, otherwise there owould be two cyphers on the boards. But this is not confirmed.

These cyphers are definitely large, not the small ones seen in all the other pictures in this thread. Either they are wrong, or the ruling was changed later.

So in this case, the cypher is in the wrong place, with the wrong crown, and in the wrong size.

Either this is a really interesting pair of boards, or it is pure rubbish concocted by some misguided chap.

Points in favour: the crown and crossed batons are the correct design and correct method of embroidery. Very high relief and good workmanship.

Points against, one of the crowns is not straight, and the leather back of the boards with the maker's name and laces have obviously been removed and a black piece of cloth stitched in place. What for - to replace the cyphers?

Mountbatten's boards, on the other hand, are quite impressive!

[achern]

I got this scan off another forum that deals with rank insignia and posted it here for our reference.



It shows that in the 1920s, full UK RN admirals wore only three stars, and the cypher was worn in between the crown and the crossed batons for Admirals of the Fleet.

In fact, this was the case until just after WWII, I am told.

This might shed some more light on who the owner of these boards might be.

[mdp]

Does anyone know where I can get the Royal Cypher shown on these shoulder boards (EIIR)?

[achern]

You could try searching on Gieves or Selcraft's websites. They are usually quite expensive, being made of silver-gilt.

[mdp]

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't able to find any website for Gieves, but I did contact the other company.

[achern]

Here you go: http://www.gievesandhawkesmilitary.c...Metalwork.html

[achern]

Well, Gents, I think it is time to lay this topic to rest.

I visited the Gieves military department in London last month and showed the boards to the director with my questions.

He said that during the immediate post-war period, it was quite normal for officers to keep the bullion insignia on the boards and swap only the royal cyphers to save cost.

Boards were expensive in those days, particularly for an Admiral of the Fleet, so it would have been done, and that there was nothing particularly unusual about this example.

To add credence to the thought, on removing the EIIR cyphers, there is a lighter mark on the bullion, which says that the cyphers have been there quite a long time.