Royal Navy Admiral of the Fleet shoulder boards - whose?

[achern]

Dear All,

Got these in the mail today and wanted to share them with you.

I do have a question that some of you may be able to help me with. With a "King's" crown and the Queen's cypher, who might have worn boards like these?

Arthur Power and Rhoderick McGrigor are the only two I can think of.


Front side of the boards


Showing the extreme 3D relief of the crown


The relief of the crossed batons


Detail of the baton embroidery


Back of the boards

Final question - are they the real thing? Please feel free to comment.

[uscob]

I'm not the real expert but I would say that the Royal Cypher was replaced after the Coronation. I think to see some old holes from the GVIR. Was maybe cheaper to replace only the Cypher.
I had it on some Boxes of RCAF Summer Jackets. All are new from the box Small buttons w. KC, large ones with QC.

[achern]

Hi Nico, yes I think you are right. I also think they were replaced after coronation, as it is rather odd to have both monarch's insignia on the same board.

Come to think of it, this probably means somebody actually wore the boards. The question is, who?

[uscob]

ABC? (Andrew Browne Cunningham, 1st Viscount Cunningham of Hyndhope)

In the Second World War, as Commander-in-Chief, Mediterranean Fleet, Cunningham led British naval forces to victory in several critical Mediterranean naval battles. These included the attack on Taranto in 1940, the first completely all-aircraft naval attack in history, and the Battle of Cape Matapan in 1941. Cunningham controlled the defence of the Mediterranean supply lines through Alexandria, Gibraltar, and the key chokepoint of Malta. The admiral also directed naval support for the various major allied landings in the Western Mediterranean littoral. In 1943, Cunningham was promoted to First Sea Lord, a position he held until his retirement in 1946. After his retirement Cunningham enjoyed several ceremonial positions including Lord High Steward at the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II in 1953. He died on 12 June 1963

Sir Charles Morton Forbes

[achern]

I didn't think of ABC! It would be really interesting if he had those cyphers replaced for QEII's coronation.

On the other hand, I can't find any info about when Charles Forbes retired. Did he have a chance to serve under QEII as well, or did he retire in 1940 after becoming CinC of the Home Fleet?

[uscob]

I didn't think of ABC! It would be really interesting if he had those cyphers replaced for QEII's coronation.

Not at, but after the coronation. Maybe?

[LuftMike]

Wouldn't Lord Mountbatten have worn a set of these?

[uscob]

Wouldn't Lord Mountbatten have worn a set of these?

I would say NONONONONO Noooo.
He was promoted to Admiral of the Fleet in 1956 so he would wear it with Queens Crown and EIIR Cypher and not KC and EIIR. Must be shortly after the Coronation so a very small timeframe.
Nico

[achern]

One of the key things pointed out to me is that the boards have no maker mark or straps for attachment.

Could this be because the boards had to be opened to replace the cyphers and then closed up again? Or...?

[achern]

For comparison, I have here a picture of a shoulder board from the last Admiral of the Fleet Ben Bathurst. It is branded Gieves of London, but made in India, like most English handmade things today.

[achern]

You can see that the shape and style of the crown and crossed batons in wreath for the Indian-made Gieves board is the same as the older pair of boards, and the workmanship is still of high quality, unlike the complete reproductions found on ebay which look nothing like these.

[Steen Ammentorp]

Couldn't it be any of the following having been promoted to Adm of the Fleet prior to 1952 and died after. At the outbreak of WW2 the living retired AdmF's were restored to the navy list (like the Field Marshals) and subsecently all later AdmF's has remained on the list until their death. I take it that they like the Field Marshals on numerous occations wore uniforms.

Alfred Ernle Montacute Chatfield (3 May 1935), died 1967
Duke of Windsor (21 Jan 1936), died 1972
William Henry Dudley Boyle (21 Jan 1938), died 1967
Charles Morton Forbes (8 May 1940), died 1960
Andrew Browne Cunningham (21 Jan 1943), died 1963
John Cronyn Tovey (22 Oct 1943), died 1971
John Henry Dacres Cunningham (21 Jan 1948), died 1962
Bruce Austin Fraser (22 Oct 1948), died 1981
Algernon Usborne Willis (20 Mar 1949), died 1976

However of these only Fraser was in active service after the correnation as he didn't leave the office as First Sea Lord until April 1952. So perhaps he is the best shot.

[achern]

Thanks Steve. I'm not about Fraser though. I think the key to those boards lie in the EIIR cypher. Fraser wasn't an ADC to the Queen, was he? Or did all fleet admirals automatically wear the cypher?

[Jim Maclean]

Interesting point you make about ADC status. I don't know whether an Admiral of the Fleet( NOT FLEET ADMIRAL) would be an ADC, I suspect so.

Modern rank insinia dictates that the Royal Cypher is worn nearest the shoulder for ADC i.e furthest from the button. In this example the Royal Cypher would seem to make up part of the rank insignia.

A good starting point would be 1952/3 Navy Lists which would name all Admirals of the Fleet and then quite possibly if you could find out the guest list or attendees at the Coronation. My guess is that hese were not worn at the Coronation as anyone attending would have new boards with the correct crown and that your wearer didn't attend. The boards were interchangeable on different uniforms, why have more than one set.

The whole form of the insignia needs to be researched IMHO

The opinions (mine) above are really conjecture.

[Steen Ammentorp]

Well – Lord Fraser was First & Principal Naval Aide-de-Camp until 1st Oct 1948, where he was succeed by Admiral Sir Henry R. Moore, who in turn was succeed by Admiral Sir Arthur J. Power on the 15th Jan 1951, and he was re-appointed to the Queen. Interestingly enough Power became a Admiral of the Fleet on 22 April 1952 and was succeeded two days later as First & Principal Naval Aide-de-Camp by Admiral Sir Rhoderick R. McGrigor.

So no – a Admiral of the Fleet wasn't automatically an ADC – actually all the cases I have seen seems to indicate the opposite, that a promotion to Admiral of the Fleet means relinquishing the appoint of ADC.

The above list is complete in regards to Admirals of the Fleet living in 1952.