ww2 german copy helmet for special ops

[polihelmet]

Hi all, I found on eBay an interesting helmet, is not estrictly a german helmet, but is a copy that the british MofD made for training and used also in special operation in ocupied land.
The liner is an adaptation of the ww2 MK2 liner, but specially made for this helmet, besides some collection is also an example in the Canadian Military Museum.
Acording to collector and author Roger Lucy:
-...Judging from early 1943 correspondence between
HQ First Canadian Army and the Britsh Ministry of Supply they were
made by a company called Grimson & Slater Ltd of Long Eaton
Nottinghamshire (manufacturers - according to their letterhead - of
springs and steel furnishings) and cost 15 shillings each...-

The eBay seller description is not correct of course.
Nice and interesting helmet I think!
the link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ksid=p3907.m29

[Naaficook]

[Old Smelly]

Not sure about the 'Special Ops' bit but I'm sure I read somewhere that such helmets (and uniforms) were made, I think the idea was for them to be worn or displayed at certain training/intruction courses so troops would know what a Jerry looked like. Also there were a lot of items like this made up in the 40s/50s for the film industry so withiout a hands on inspection who knows.
Lee

[byterock]

Some of them were wwI vintage and Irish army cut up to look like the newer ones and like the others said they were used in training by the enemy force.

Any real ones they had were used by actual operatives.

One of my old masters from H.S. did this type of work during the war. He spoke perfect German, French and Spanish and would dress up in all sorts of odd uniforms.

The funnest story he had to tell was being dressed up as SS officer jumping on a train to London, with a Dutch, Polish and French Canadian officers, going to dinner and a show and then heading back to the exercise without anyone stopping him.

Said he never spoke a word of English the whole day. Just German to the Dutch guy, Spanish to the Pole and French to the Canadian. He even had a photo him at Trafalgar square with his three buddies (wish I had it )

At the time there were so many foreign uniforms in London nobody seemed to notice him.

[Beau Brummel.]

what a fantastic story, thank you for sharing It.

Yours, Guy.

[yellow]

When i first saw it I thought it was Irish Army. I believe Vickers were contracted to make the German WW1 style helmet. I`m not into WW2 stuff so I dont have any knowledge of that.

I really dont understand why anyone would go to the trouble of manufacturing German gear during war time even for special ops, why not use the real thing? My own local regiment used to shoot at targets dressed in German uniforms and head gear on a nearby range......you can still find old german buttons with the imperial crown where the targets used to reside with .303 bullets all around.

[Strider]

I can't believe that German-style helmets were manufactured by Britain for use by agents. Perhaps for training exercises but certainly not for use on operations.

It would have been a breach of the Geneva and Hague Conventions for Allied personnel to wear enemy uniforms. But in 1945 some German POW volunteers were dropped into Germany in German uniform by SOE for Operation Periwig. However, if memory serves correctly they wore real uniforms which had been captured in abundance by 1945.

The only other incidence that springs to mind is Airey Neave trying to escape from Colditz castle wearing a fake German officers uniform. The idea was that it would be used purely for getting him out of the camp and then dumped.

[Old Smelly]

OK, difficult to see if its the same style of helmet but these are British troops.

[Old Smelly]

The back of the pic, named and dated May 1944, just before D-Day, so fits in with the 'Know Your Enemy' training theory.

[seebee1]

I realize this is a very old thread, however would like to know if any Forum Member has an example of the German Helmet allegedly manufactured and used by SOE. I have had some interesting correspondence with a fellow collector who believes he has the opportunity to buy one. I was trying a Google search and this came back to the WA page link. Whilst it is quite possible that copies were made, although I have never seen an example, comments already made about use, or otherwise, by SOE I believe are valid. If they were manufactured for SOE, Training or Operationally, they would be exceptionally rare IMO. If anyone has an example and any information to prove, with history, provenance or documentation, I would be very keen to see it. Many thanks, Clive.

[peter monahan]

First, I think it extremely un likely, except in the movies, that any SOE agent would dress in German uniform. Aside from the risk of death if caught, what would he/she do in Jerry kit? They were staying underground, working with the Maquis and the other resistance groups, not infiltrating German camps. To do that would need PERFECT German, all the codes of the day/week, knowledge of procedures, German slang, the latest gossip and so on and so on. Only in HOLLYWOOD!

Second, the Allies must have had captured German kit no later than 1941. Plus, all the recognition manuals used drawings and photos. Why bother to make up kit for training when it was so much easier to use the real thing or photos?

A nice story, but hang onto your wallet if anyone offers to sell you any such thing!

[seebee1]

Many thanks Peter, totally agree with your comments, I am very skeptical about this as well. There were SOE Operations that may have used German Equipment, also OSS Operations as well. However with the quantity of captured materials can see no reason why copies would ever need to be manufactured, especially thinking about manufacture and size markings, also in some instances, decals. I certainly would not ever buy one unless it had cast-iron proof, history and provenance. Regards, Clive.

PS: SOE and OSS did manufacture fake German Insignias and documents, but unless proven otherwise, not Helmets.

[paul.j]

Helmet

There is no doubt that German uniforms were manufactured by MoD,as one member stated ,they would of been used for training,OPFOR,those type of things.Any type of theory they were used by OSS,SOE is just another ludicrous collector theory.
Imperial war museum has one of the m36 style uniforms made for this purpose (same uniform put forward in the WH uniforms section as an "Austrian emergency issue") so it makes sense that headgear would of been manufactured as well,whether the helmet that started the thread is indeed one of those?
Paul

[seebee1]

Following some interesting email exchanges with a fellow Forum Member, he drew attention to the German Helmet that is illustrated in the M.I.9 book "Per Ardua Libertas". I had thought that the Helmet shown was an original, however the caption states "Exact in every Detail", this could infer that copies were in fact made. It seems quite bizarre that M.I.9 would have Helmets made, how on earth they could be smuggled into a POW Camp to assist evasion is some stretch of imagination. Also, of course, in most instances, but not all as seen by some escapees from Colditz I believe, the wearing of a German Uniform would mean almost certain death. Anyway, certainly something to consider further, images from Per Ardua Libertas attached.

[seebee1]

Images 2 & 3