Fairbairn Sykes 2nd Pattern opinions needed

[yellow]

They mess with the pommel nut to reblue the blade. So my dad tells me.

[britpc]

Hi,
I think looking at the examples that exist the answer has got to be 'no'. Hand ground blades came first and transitioned over to 3rd Patts and as such can't go back. Unless the blade has been replaced you won't find a machine ground blade on a 2nd Patt. The only 2nd Patt types you see with the machine ground blade on are the ringed and beaded/roped grip type and also the OSS FS knife. Never say never but I would stay away from a 2nd Patt with a machine ground blade unless you know it has had the blade replaced during WW2.
Regards
Irv

That's an option I didn't concider, Thanks.

But another question. Like Guy said, do those "transitional" 2nd pattern models exist?

Again, my appologies for not thinking the matter through enough.

[GliderRider]

Thanks for the information Irv.

Everything is much clearer for me now.
Another day, another little thing learned Thanks.

[seebee1]

Looking at the website mentioned by Pas de Croix there are a couple of 2nd Pattern Knives shown with machine ground blades. I checked some of my own 2nd patterns and although the majority do have the hand ground blades one did not. I will post images of this example. I have owned it for many years and do not recall anything about the scabbard-sheath, though think it must have come with it. The only markings on it are the broad-head arrow and the No 4 stamp under the crossguard. Also the pommel nut seems completely untouched. Regards, Clive.

[seebee1]

Image 2

[seebee1]

Image 3

[seebee1]

Image 4 - Pommel Nut Clamp Mark

[seebee1]

Image 5 - Other side Pommel Nut clamp mark

[seebee1]

Image 6 - Last. Markings underside of Crossguard

[Pas de croix]

Hi Clive
Your knife looks very much like the fat man knife by J. Clarke & Son (broad arrow 4), which Roy Shadbolt presents on our website.
http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artikla..._knife_p22.htm

Do you have a picture of the pommel nut from the behind?

[britpc]

Hi Clive,
You always come up with a knife that (I think) is controversial. And anyone reading this please remember that this is only my opinion.
Grip looks like a fat boy 2nd patt and the nut looks good but lots of other points look none standard for a 2nd Patt. Cross guard (from the picture on my monitor) looks to thin (should be 1/8") blade is machine ground (according to you), the mark in stamped on the underside (Unusual) and the scabbard chape is held on with a hollow rivet. The use of the canvas frog isn't unusual. What's the history on this one? Overall the knife looks nice. I do have a 2nd Patt Arrow B2 which has a hand ground blade 6 6/8 long but only 6/8 wide (should be 7/8). Now that width difference doesn't sound much but makes the blade look very narrow. Everything else on my knife is standard WW2 manufacture. The use of machine ground blades, or what appear to be machine ground blades on 2nd Patt turn up. Nickel 2nd Patt's show up with blades that don't have the triangle grind at the top of the blade denoting that they could be machine ground but these knives are early examples?? As always we learn every day and that's why we do it.
Regards
Irv

[seebee1]

I think you mean the top of the Pommel Nut Pas de Croix? If so image attached. Yes it probably is the "fat man" pattern. A knife I have picked up along the way, no history or story Irv, but one of a few that I own. I do admit that I have always looked for the "unusual" and "odd" variations in all manner of material. Although I like "textbook" items as much as anyone, when there is something different I also find this of interest. All the best, Clive.

[Pas de croix]

Hi Clive,
Irv is right considering the thickness of the cross guard. There is another point also which I consider and that is the mark after the plier. It could be messed with. It should be clean at least on one side and look like this:

But still it is very difficult to say. I know that Clark & Son made these Fat Man with broad arrow 4. These are very intersting knives and we learn from each other all the time.

[seebee1]

The cross guard is 1/8" Irv, for some reason the image does make it look a little thinner. Tomorrow I will post another 2nd Pattern, similar but yet another variation. Regarding the clamp marks Pas de Croix, if you check my image 5 I really see very little difference to your own example. I am fairly sure my example has not been messed with, were the same clamp mark positions to have been used for a replacement blade there is no way it would look like it does. Regards, Clive.

[britpc]

Sorry for the delay It's taken me two days to get the forum working on my machine
Here is the pictures of the knife I mentioned.
Regards
Irv