Fairbairn Sykes 2nd Pattern opinions needed

[Messerschmitt]

Hello, I think this one is okay.

The blade is in super condition with the blackened finish still almost perfect.
The checkered pattern brass hilt is copper plated and and is fastened by a " small acorn" pommel nut in blackened steel, which was characteristic of pattern two knives.

It bears the typical small clamp marks, (see Locken’s collectors guide page 38). The guard is the standard heavy gauge blackened steel oval type and is stamped with the British Army " broad arrow" acceptance mark and the letter B which is part of B2 but the 2 is off the edge of the guard.

The tabs have been removed as is so often the case but the elastic retainer is intact. It is stamped " England" on the frog. Elastic maybe brought on later? Normally they are not black but brown?

[Messerschmitt]

[seebee1]

Looks like a good well used example to me. It may be that the sheath-scabbard was added later. I would have expected the post-war "England" stamp to also be on the crossguard. Clive.

[Gary Jucha]

Would

Would I be right in saying that the blade is a machine finished type rather than a hand forged ?

Gary J.

[lnijherald]

Spot on Gary! Am I right this machine ground type of blade was used first on 3rd pattern F/S knives?

Luc

[paulbear]

Are the England stamped ones not the immediate post war models made as war rep payments to the US ?

paul

[Beau Brummel.]

England stamped models were surplus which were sold to the US post war In their thousands. They are so marked as a law introduced In the 1890's stated that export Items must carry the country of origin.

This Is Indeed a machine ground blade and these in general are seen on the 3'rd patterns. However as hand forged blades are seen in third pattern grips and referred to as transitional It Is highly likely that this configuration also existed, one of the dedicated fairbairn collectors like Irv should be able to fill in the gaps there.

The scabbard Is a later replacement which has had the original brown elastic replaced at some point. For many years these scabbards were not accepted as wartime but apparently they are now considered to be late war.

Yours, Guy.

[Pas de croix]

It is a typical late production 2nd Pattern F-S but with the new type of blade w/o the wedge. Gary is correct - the blade is a machine finished type rather than a hand forged.
It looks good. Most likely made in the Sheffield area.

The only small question I have is the pommel nut but it has had a hard life I can see. It is difficult to see if anybody messed with it.

The scabbard does most likely not belong to this knife. It has been in US as Paul Bear says.
Maybe the knife itself never went to US because it has no ENGLAND stamp.
You can read more about these knives here
http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artiklar/fs/fs_knife1.htm

[Messerschmitt]

Okay, thanks for all reply's so far.
I can do something with this info.

Cheers,


Tim

[britpc]

Hi,
Luc sent me a PM which I have just sent a reply. I thought it would have been best posted here as I hadn't seen the thread

Hi Luc,
Sorry for the delay but I've just got back from a couple of days away with my kids.
Back to the knife...
It looks very suspect to me
The scabbard is a late war 3rd Patt type not the one you would get with a 2nd Patt, also has the 'England' mark which you know is a US import stamp, also elastic is a replacement, the nut has been messed with which is why it's got a machine ground blade instead of the hand ground blade that always goes with a arrow B2 mark. The mark on the crossguard is good, as is the grip.
If you want a good one....run away from this one

Regards
Irv

[lnijherald]

Hi Irv,
Glad to see my initial doubts about this knife were correct.

Cheers, Luc

[GliderRider]

I still don't quite get it. I've been following the thread and one question keeps popping up....Why downgrade a knife??

Why mess with the pommel nut to replace the blade if you know in advance that the knife will be worth less??

The explanation given by Guy seems more likely to me.

This Is Indeed a machine ground blade and these in general are seen on the 3'rd patterns. However as hand forged blades are seen in third pattern grips and referred to as transitional It Is highly likely that this configuration also existed.

I'm no expert on the mather but just thinking logically, it doesn't make sense.

[lnijherald]

Why downgrade a knife??

Willem, my impression is that is not downgraded but assembled from spare parts of various types.

Luc

[britpc]

Willem, my impression is that is not downgraded but assembled from spare parts of various types.

Luc

[GliderRider]

Willem, my impression is that is not downgraded but assembled from spare parts of various types.

Luc

That's an option I didn't concider, Thanks.

But another question. Like Guy said, do those "transitional" 2nd pattern models exist?

Again, my appologies for not thinking the matter through enough.