Watch this seller and buyers!!!!

[lnijherald]

Those trousers are excellent! I'm off to make a bid .

If you do you just might get a decent pair of Canadian BD trousers cheap.
Luc

[JEROEN1944]

Well put Guy. Normally it is greed that fools the collector .

Indeed, but there is some day the "repro's" will look almost genuine, and only if you studied a very long time genuine and repro"s you will see the diference!
It"s getting harder an harder for young collectors.....

[lnijherald]

only if you studied a very long time genuine and repro"s you will see the diference!

Jeroen, a bit of free advise here: when your kid is born, hold it in one arm so you have one hand to operate your mouse and keyboard. You can then combine good parental quality time AND spend time on your hobby!
Worked for me!

Luc

[force136]

Fake Crap

I agree with Jeroen - I couldn't give a polished turd about re-in-actors right to create repro material. It is their responsibility to mark their repro dress-up stuff as such. I think its crazy for any intelligent collector to support the manufacture of repro's that have no indication of being such. It is -after all -against the law. It falls under a forgery as it is -no matter how you argue it- in the end it is made to decieve. Regardless what the seller says now, if their is no indication on the item itself that it is a repro - then it is deceiving-Why is it so important for these people to have things like exact labels etc??? Its a mystery to me. While the guy is printing it - why can't he simply print on the other side COPY. Instead of saying 1944 why can't it say 2005. This only helps everyone in the end and is the law. Look it up.

Ken

Jeroen, a bit of free advise here: when your kid is born, hold it in one arm so you have one hand to operate your mouse and keyboard. You can then combine good parental quality time AND spend time on your hobby!
Worked for me!

Luc

[Guy]

I do agree entirely Ken but surely there is some onus on the collector to educate his/her self in what is after all meant to be their hobby.

Too many colectors these days rely on the word of the blue chip dealers many of whom it is sad to say are just as likely to sell you a dud (but you get a guarantee so its ok ) and undertake little or no research themselves. It is the It's shiny, I like it , You've got one, I want it, mentality!

As for the legalities unfortunately things are somewhat different this side of the pond. For a start Third Reich items are illegal in much of Europe so if you do get stung you have very little redress in the law. Add to that the fact that if you catch one of these guys he will virtually always fall back on the "good Faith" arguement and the onus is then on you to prove otherwise . It's a pretty S####Y state of affairs and as Jeroen pointed out it makes things very tricky. Not just for the young or inexperienced collector but for us all. Which really only re-enforces my first point. Learn, Read, Visit as many museums, collections as possible and hopefully one can minimise any potential damage. That said, I'me sure we all have a mistakes box, I personally could do with a mini skip .

Go Steady, Guy.

[Maj.Cain]

If a seller states on ebay that his stuff is repro then there's no harm done.

There are however sellers on ebay which do not state in there advertisement that the item is repro, they even go so far as saying that there item is a scarce item worn by so and so.
Also some sellers will put on fake items and when you contact them there reply is, ooh well i didn't know that, thank you very much for telling me.
But mostly nothing is changed in the add by the seller, so deception is very big on internet nowa days.
There for its up to us to know our stuff, and not be to blind on an item which you want to believe its the real deal but is realy a repro or postwar item.
Its a crooked world out there

Maj.Cain

[jelle]

I agree with all arguments,it's all in the game .It just makes it more fun to find the real thing between all the junk out there.Rather have reenactors using these fakes then the real stuff,cose they will if the repros are not good enough,I myself try to keep up with what is repro out there and i geuss most of you do as well.

[force136]

Forgers

Firstly I would like to clear up one important point. I am a Museum Technition. I have studied the legalities of this. Museums were some of the first to create reproductions ( Not-fakes, fakes are fantasy items like a cap badge that never existed ) It is the law in Canada-US-UK-Australian-NZ etc. etc. that all reproductions are clearly marked as a reproduction. This includes stuff sold in gift shops and in the museum collection. This is done strictly so that the museum staff can identify it as such and-just in case it ends up in private hands and is resold. The marking is to be done so that removal of the marking would result in the destruction of the item or at least reveal the fact that it is not an authentic artifact. This applies to reproducing in the public as well. Regardless where the seller got the item from or whether he states its a repro or not-if the items itself is not marked-its against the law and legal action can be taken-especially on e-bay. This includes articles as supposedly harmless as cloth labels and metal badges etc. You will note that legal restrikes of badges were made by the manufacturer or the present owner of the dies. They are legally able to do so-its their property and there is no need to mark them as such. However someone making lables in his backyard that are identical to the artifact - with company name and wartime date and no indication that these are reproductions - that is against the law. In a court of law these people would lose. It is clear by the maker name and date that it is made to decieve. It is breaking another law ( also in the UK ) to use the name of a manufacturer or to use Assay marks etc. I have recently seen some a-holes in the UK casting Canadian badges in silver and reproducing the silver mark. This is a prison sentence.

I am getting sick of supposed serious collectors excepting this BS. I have been researching 1CPB for decades now and I can assure you that regardless of your reference material-I could make something right now that will fool all of you. The reason being- most reference material on the market is based on collector rumour and NOT primary sources-ie Archives-manufacturer records, extenisve collections of photographs etc. Dont get me wrong- there is some good material out there- however collectors have to stand up to the illegal reproduction crowd. This practice is illegal if not done properly and if you ever get scammed for big money- at least you know you can make the person responsible hurt. Dont beleive this crap that you can do nothing about it. Every police force has a fraud division.

I bought a few German badges from a guy named Micheal Douglas years ago. He wrote articles for Bender. He baited me with an original Luft para badge and then sent two reproductions. These were clearly made to decieve. The RCMP agreed and set up an investigation. This was more difficult because he was in the States. However they worked with the local police to find him. I found out that he was in fact a vagrant and moved around alot. They did however close him down and made all involved aware of his practice. If he had been in Canada- he would have been found and legally charged.

You have rights and the law behind you people. Dont let anyone tell you any different.

Anyway I learned that even in respected sources of military information there are predators lurking. My collecting today is refined-I do the research and locate the vets themselves.

Again I agree with the originator of this thread.

Ken

I do agree entirely Ken but surely there is some onus on the collector to educate his/her self in what is after all meant to be their hobby.

Too many colectors these days rely on the word of the blue chip dealers many of whom it is sad to say are just as likely to sell you a dud (but you get a guarantee so its ok ) and undertake little or no research themselves. It is the It's shiny, I like it , You've got one, I want it, mentality!

As for the legalities unfortunately things are somewhat different this side of the pond. For a start Third Reich items are illegal in much of Europe so if you do get stung you have very little redress in the law. Add to that the fact that if you catch one of these guys he will virtually always fall back on the "good Faith" arguement and the onus is then on you to prove otherwise . It's a pretty S####Y state of affairs and as Jeroen pointed out it makes things very tricky. Not just for the young or inexperienced collector but for us all. Which really only re-enforces my first point. Learn, Read, Visit as many museums, collections as possible and hopefully one can minimise any potential damage. That said, I'me sure we all have a mistakes box, I personally could do with a mini skip .

Go Steady, Guy.

[Guy]

Firstly I would like to clear up one important point. I am a Museum Technition. I have studied the legalities of this. Museums were some of the first to create reproductions ( Not-fakes, fakes are fantasy items like a cap badge that never existed ) It is the law in Canada-US-UK-Australian-NZ etc. etc. that all reproductions are clearly marked as a reproduction. This includes stuff sold in gift shops and in the museum collection. This is done strictly so that the museum staff can identify it as such and-just in case it ends up in private hands and is resold. The marking is to be done so that removal of the marking would result in the destruction of the item or at least reveal the fact that it is not an authentic artifact. This applies to reproducing in the public as well. Regardless where the seller got the item from or whether he states its a repro or not-if the items itself is not marked-its against the law and legal action can be taken-especially on e-bay. This includes articles as supposedly harmless as cloth labels and metal badges etc. You will note that legal restrikes of badges were made by the manufacturer or the present owner of the dies. They are legally able to do so-its their property and there is no need to mark them as such. However someone making lables in his backyard that are identical to the artifact - with company name and wartime date and no indication that these are reproductions - that is against the law. In a court of law these people would lose. It is clear by the maker name and date that it is made to decieve. It is breaking another law ( also in the UK ) to use the name of a manufacturer or to use Assay marks etc. I have recently seen some a-holes in the UK casting Canadian badges in silver and reproducing the silver mark. This is a prison sentence.

I am getting sick of supposed serious collectors excepting this BS. I have been researching 1CPB for decades now and I can assure you that regardless of your reference material-I could make something right now that will fool all of you. The reason being- most reference material on the market is based on collector rumour and NOT primary sources-ie Archives-manufacturer records, extenisve collections of photographs etc. Dont get me wrong- there is some good material out there- however collectors have to stand up to the illegal reproduction crowd. This practice is illegal if not done properly and if you ever get scammed for big money- at least you know you can make the person responsible hurt. Dont beleive this crap that you can do nothing about it. Every police force has a fraud division.

I bought a few German badges from a guy named Micheal Douglas years ago. He wrote articles for Bender. He baited me with an original Luft para badge and then sent two reproductions. These were clearly made to decieve. The RCMP agreed and set up an investigation. This was more difficult because he was in the States. However they worked with the local police to find him. I found out that he was in fact a vagrant and moved around alot. They did however close him down and made all involved aware of his practice. If he had been in Canada- he would have been found and legally charged.

You have rights and the law behind you people. Dont let anyone tell you any different.

Anyway I learned that even in respected sources of military information there are predators lurking. My collecting today is refined-I do the research and locate the vets themselves.

Again I agree with the originator of this thread.

Ken

So It's ok to re-strike cap badges and not mark them as such because you own the dies. What a crock of s##t. Maybe thats why we're all swimming through a morass of re-strikes and have been for 30 odd years. However, print a few labels, which are simply a component and you put peoples backs up, funny old world isn't it.

As for redress in the form of the law, don't make me laugh. If it's out of the hands of the small claims court do you have any idea what it would cost to prosecute. You went to the police over a few hundred bucks worth of badges and what did you achieve. Very little by the sounds of things.

As regards reference books, I agree. A colleague used a beautiful phrase and that was that "Reference books are very often vehicles for the mis-conceptions and biggotry of their authors" I couldn't agree more.

All I have advocated throughout this thread is that people stay vigilant, do their research and try to get to see as much original material as posible. What is wrong with that. Anyway, I'me bored now so this is my final post on the subject.

Ciao, Guy.

[force136]

Hi Guy

So It's ok to re-strike cap badges and not mark them as such because you own the dies. What a crock of s##t.

>>>Why is this a crock? They have legal ownership of the original dies which they manufactured during the war. All are private purchase dies for officer badges or badges not ordered via the Govt. They are not breaking any law because they are the legal owner of the die-its their property. J.R.Gaunt is reported to have done this and possibly Firmin. - I agree however there should have been some indication that they are restrikes. However - as you said- if you do your research, you should know the difference right? The people making the labels-are not the legal owner of the label contract -nor are they the company listed on the label they are producing-nor is it-at least the last time I checked-1944 or whatever dates they use.

Maybe thats why we're all swimming through a morass of re-strikes and have been for 30 odd years. However, print a few labels, which are simply a component and you put peoples backs up, funny old world isn't it.

As for redress in the form of the law, don't make me laugh. If it's out of the hands of the small claims court do you have any idea what it would cost to prosecute. You went to the police over a few hundred bucks worth of badges and what did you achieve. Very little by the sounds of things.

>>>>Hey-man- are you doing this in your basement yourself-whats your problem? If this fellow was in Canada for example- a lot would have been achieved. Firstly Fraud is not a small claims court matter. The police would shut his operation down. If he does it again, there is a record of his criminal behaviour-and I am sure no one wants a criminal record. As for what happened in the States-Well now the US authorities have a record of his activity. If he does it again to someone in the US - they will be in an even better legal position. It can be a deterent.

As regards reference books, I agree. A colleague used a beautiful phrase and that was that "Reference books are very often vehicles for the mis-conceptions and biggotry of their authors" I couldn't agree more.

All I have advocated throughout this thread is that people stay vigilant, do their research and try to get to see as much original material as posible. What is wrong with that.

>>>Guy- there is nothing wrong with that at all-and it is appreciated. However all I was stating was that people do not have to take this crap and have recourse-What is wrong with that??????

Toodilly-Doo!


Anyway, I'me bored now so this is my final post on the subject.

Ciao, Guy.

[Kevan]

Hi Ken,

I am all for taking on the fakers and fraudsters, but I don't believe for a minute that all the major reproduction dealers, who have provided outfits for 'Band of Brothers', 'Saving Private Ryan' etc as well as selling to private individuals who wish to re-enact as a hobby, are acting illegaly in this country by not having reproduction stamped on their gear.
Also of course we have recourse to the law against fraudsters, but remember that you have to prove the item is a fake and also prove the dealer acted fraudulantly. That can be a very easy thing to know but a very difficult thing to prove beyond reasonable doubt. And it can include a significant financial gamble, as some collectors who have tried to challenge dealers have found out to their cost .
I agree with Guy's point that the best and least risky option for collectors is to do their homework BEFORE they buy. Research, research and more research is the best, but not infallable, first line of defence. I would not recommend relying solely on the law to save you after you have made a purchase as a full proof option .

[JEROEN1944]

Hi Ken,

I am all for taking on the fakers and fraudsters, but I don't believe for a minute that all the major reproduction dealers, who have provided outfits for 'Band of Brothers', 'Saving Private Ryan' etc as well as selling to private individuals who wish to re-enact as a hobby, are acting illegaly in this country by not having reproduction stamped on their gear.
Also of course we have recourse to the law against fraudsters, but remember that you have to prove the item is a fake and also prove the dealer acted fraudulantly. That can be a very easy thing to know but a very difficult thing to prove beyond reasonable doubt. And it can include a significant financial gamble, as some collectors who have tried to challenge dealers have found out to their cost .
I agree with Guy's point that the best and least risky option for collectors is to do their homework BEFORE they buy. Research, research and more research is the best, but not infallable, first line of defence. I would not recommend relying solely on the law to save you after you have made a purchase as a full proof option .

Hmmm seems to be a popular tread..
Hi Kevan, i dont think you get the picture. Theres nothing wrong with reproduction, so as BoB or whatever, but why print labels or making the exact same trousers etc, like the originals. What is wrong, with a slide different, so not the exact labels or whatever. This has nothing to do with studie genuine ones. Why would someone buy such a label? To show off, i have a genuine pair of dated trousers??? Ye right!!! No, its just to fool someone.

quote"I am all for taking on the fakers and fraudsters, but I don't believe for a minute that all the major reproduction dealers, who have provided outfits for 'Band of Brothers', 'Saving Private Ryan' etc as well as selling to private individuals who wish to re-enact as a hobby, are acting illegaly in this country by not having reproduction stamped on their gear "quote"

What you`re telling here is thrue, and knowes everybody, but thats not the point in this tread...

Jeroen

[Kevan]

Jeroen,

You need to read the thread of Force 136 again . It is exactly the point that he made that I was replying to .

[Guy]

Bugger, I've broken me own caveat but there you go.

Jeroen, GET A GRIP. You have bought some exceptionally nasty stuff from ebay in the past and what is the reason? You didn't do your research, you didn't ask advice and you got caught! LEARN FROM THAT!

The people here will bend over backwards to help you and steer you out of trouble. Ebay whilst being quite a useful tool appeals to all that is base in humanity. Thats why people get their heads kicked in on there. Here is one example of how it happens.

A ne'er do well takes a few crappy photos of his nasty item or items. He will have several user names and picks the one that he hasn't sold any of that particular item with (be it militaria, washing machines or whatever). He then puts in a very naive description (dont know what this is it came out of my uncles estate, etc) and waits for the mugs to roll up.

When an inexperienced person finds the item they usually have just enough knowledge to hang themselves. "well it looks ok, has all the right bits, etc, etc" They don't want to ask on a forum (should they even know about them) because this is their chance to get a real bargain and teach all those guys a lesson, ha ha. Also if they add a link and ask questions everyone will know about the item decreasing their chances of winning it! OH PLEASE, do these people really think that if they have seen something no one else has?

The chances of getting a genuine bargain this way are MINIMAL but it does occasionally happen. But in order for it to happen you have to have the luck of the devil or really know your s##t.

I can't help feeling that you just want to have a moan as you have been wronged in the past and the guy selling these labels was the first target you found. Instead of trying to perpetuate this thread as it gives you an ego trip, why not sit down and try to absorb some of the great advice given by Ken, Luc, Rene, Kev etc. rather than attempting to bellittle them.

This has been a very lively discourse and whilst all of the protagonists may not agree on all of the points broached (myself and Ken to name two. You ok Ken, sorry if I was a bit rude and no I'me not knocking out repro badges in my basement ) We are all hopefully working towards the same ends.

Yours, Guy.

[force136]

Repro-ducts

Hi Guys

I still think Jeroen is right. I dont think he is moaning-I think he is just concerned about the matter. As for Saving Private Ryan-Band of Brothers etc. Firstly- I thought they did mark these items with studio marks? It was the stuff that did not get to the studio and sold that was not? I may be wrong. However, I have some stuff from the old movie studio's ie Devils Brigade etc. and its not marked. The US para helmets they are making are real scary. There is def something that will eventually fool a heck of a lot of people in the future.

Anyway as Guy said- weve made some good points on the thread-all of us- and thats what this is for.

I am glad Guy that you have no secret workshop in the basement-Its good to know we can disagree and get along at the same time-

Ken

Bugger, I've broken me own caveat but there you go.

Jeroen, GET A GRIP. You have bought some exceptionally nasty stuff from ebay in the past and what is the reason? You didn't do your research, you didn't ask advice and you got caught! LEARN FROM THAT!

The people here will bend over backwards to help you and steer you out of trouble. Ebay whilst being quite a useful tool appeals to all that is base in humanity. Thats why people get their heads kicked in on there. Here is one example of how it happens.

A ne'er do well takes a few crappy photos of his nasty item or items. He will have several user names and picks the one that he hasn't sold any of that particular item with (be it militaria, washing machines or whatever). He then puts in a very naive description (dont know what this is it came out of my uncles estate, etc) and waits for the mugs to roll up.

When an inexperienced person finds the item they usually have just enough knowledge to hang themselves. "well it looks ok, has all the right bits, etc, etc" They don't want to ask on a forum (should they even know about them) because this is their chance to get a real bargain and teach all those guys a lesson, ha ha. Also if they add a link and ask questions everyone will know about the item decreasing their chances of winning it! OH PLEASE, do these people really think that if they have seen something no one else has?

The chances of getting a genuine bargain this way are MINIMAL but it does occasionally happen. But in order for it to happen you have to have the luck of the devil or really know your s##t.

I can't help feeling that you just want to have a moan as you have been wronged in the past and the guy selling these labels was the first target you found. Instead of trying to perpetuate this thread as it gives you an ego trip, why not sit down and try to absorb some of the great advice given by Ken, Luc, Rene, Kev etc. rather than attempting to bellittle them.

This has been a very lively discourse and whilst all of the protagonists may not agree on all of the points broached (myself and Ken to name two. You ok Ken, sorry if I was a bit rude and no I'me not knocking out repro badges in my basement ) We are all hopefully working towards the same ends.

Yours, Guy.