Red WW2 Turtleshell. Firemans ?

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Colin, glad to see that you are leaving everything "as found"

I agree these can only go up in value in future years.

In regards to a "P" type helmet I wish I had one to share Rare as rocking horse .... If you look at photos of the Bruneval Raid you can see them being worn there. Here is a replica made by my friend Steve:

http://www.pegasusmilitaria.com/page15.html

Cheers, Ade.

[leigh kitchen]

The police ones were still part of the equipment in vehicles back in the 80's, the days when coppers were expected to go on duty in the event of nuclear strike, pick up a gygergizmo & drive off into the ulu or go walkabout until contact with them was lost.

The Glosters wore black at one time, they had black lids in Cyprus in the 60's but with a regimental badge decals on them.

The regimental variations are interesting, the Fusilier's hacles & Guards plumes painted on the sides as big inverted triangles, cap badge decals, don't see that many of them around though.

Last lids I saw were black painted, a few months ago, £5 each at a Cambs dealers.

[Blindpew]

Hi Ade,
I hadn't been aware of this type of helmet at all, thanks for the link to the photos.I appreciate how rare they must be and without knowing what it was I would have guessed at it not being a British helmet.Interesting.

[RobNZ]

Hi guys.
I have read all the posts on MKIII Turtlebacks with great interest.
Is it right to assume that all MK3's with high chinstrap attachments are pre 1945?
I have an example with a 1944 dated liner, and the shell has the high chinstrap attachments.
Did MKIII shell production cease with the creation of the MKIV in late 1944?
It is a question I have always wondered about

Thanks a lot

RobNZ

[Blindpew]

Hi guys.
I have read all the posts on MKIII Turtlebacks with great interest.
Is it right to assume that all MK3's with high chinstrap attachments are pre 1945?
I have an example with a 1944 dated liner, and the shell has the high chinstrap attachments.
Did MKIII shell production cease with the creation of the MKIV in late 1944?
It is a question I have always wondered about

Thanks a lot

RobNZ

Hi Rob,
Welcome to the best site on the web
As far as I am aware you are correct and the high-chinstrap hangers are pre-1945.I have seen the 'low' chinstrap types(mk4), being sold with 1944 dated shells, but never actually had one in my hand, so I assume that the Mk4s began production in 1944, which should mean that the Mk3s were no longer being produced.Although I am not 100% sure about this as perhaps they were still being made in Canada?
I haven't seen a 'transitional' lid though, ie- a high-chinstrap shell, with a 'lift-the-dot' liner.If anybody had one of these,(if they even exist),I would be interested to see.

Sounds like you have a nice rare example there and it would be great to see a picture.

[force136]

Mk Iii

Hi Guys

I would put the production of the MKIV more towards the end of 1944 if anything. Most of the wartime MKIV's I have seen are dated 1945. Again, please do not use the liner as a way to date the helmet. These were easily removed and changed to suit the wearers size. I have never seen a dated ( in the shell ) MKIII. Only the 1945 dated ( in the shell ) MKIV and later examples. The shell was the same on the two only the chin strap and lift-the-dot fastener on the IV being different. On British helmets, a revision such as a lift-the dot system would warrant a change in designation from MKIII to IV. As with the Brit para helmets, the first two examples, the commonly called fibre band helmet, was a MKI No.5. The removal of the fibre band and the addition of a stainless steel rim did not warrant a change in its designation. It remained a MKI No. 5. Only after a significant change to the harness did the designation change to MKII.

By the way. I would like to set the record straight once and for all. NO-I repeat-NO British MK III or IV or Para Helmets were ever produced in Canada. I could care less if you have a para helmet with a C broad arrow. I have heard of many unscrupulous dealers in canada who own Ordnance C-broad arrow stamps. Also after the war the Canadian made DR helmets ( The only helmets made in canada during the war were MK II and DR ) which were converted to para. They did this by cutting the leather apron out and adding leather para straps. I have pictures of RCR and PPCLI wearing these. You can tell bcause they have the DR pins still riveted on the sides with the addition of the screws for the para liner.Because these helemts were originally made in canada as a DR helmet they have the C- broad arrow mark. Not one document at the National Archives or any other document show that Canada made any of these helmets during WW2. Again someone probably has a Brit MK III which has had a Canadian MK II liner put into it. Originally Canada wanted the US M-1 helmet, we actually got 20,000 of these. However when the MKIII was annouced, we opted to go to the MKIII ( Made in the UK ). If these helmets were also made in canada I am sure there would not have been a shortage for all the Commonwealth units in 21 AG.

Anyway I thought I would clarify that as I am tired of hearing about Canadian made MKIII and para helmets, they do not exist. However I would like to thank the honourable member for bringing that up.

KJ

Hi guys.
I have read all the posts on MKIII Turtlebacks with great interest.
Is it right to assume that all MK3's with high chinstrap attachments are pre 1945?
I have an example with a 1944 dated liner, and the shell has the high chinstrap attachments.
Did MKIII shell production cease with the creation of the MKIV in late 1944?
It is a question I have always wondered about

Thanks a lot

RobNZ

[Blindpew]

Thanks KJ for that informative info.
I was guilty of thinking that Canada did produce the Mk3's, I had either heard that somewhere or had it in my mind - that because it was mainly Canadian troops wearing them on D-Day,(that was the helmets first baptism of fire?), that they must have been producing their own.
I'm delighted you have cleared that up for me.

[Blindpew]

Hi guys.
I have read all the posts on MKIII Turtlebacks with great interest.
Is it right to assume that all MK3's with high chinstrap attachments are pre 1945?
I have an example with a 1944 dated liner, and the shell has the high chinstrap attachments.
Did MKIII shell production cease with the creation of the MKIV in late 1944?
It is a question I have always wondered about
Thanks a lot
RobNZ

Posting for Rob,

[Blindpew]

..

[Blindpew]

...

[Blindpew]

That looks like a nice example you have there Rob, thanks for sending the pics.
I'm unsure about about the paintwork as I wouldn't have expected to see the shell that colour on the inside?Nonetheless I like it, nice.
Thanks also for sending me a look at some of your lids,let me know if you want any posted up special, as I wouldn't know where to begin!
Outstanding stuff you have there

[atcase]

Hi all,

no pictures but i once `borrowed` some helmets from the fire station at Tidworth (about 1962/3) for use on my go cart. But fearing the wrath of me dad buried them in the back garden in sacks, some were red painted ans others were painted a gloss black with a white stripe around them with a Army fire service insignia applied to the front.
A shame that when i returned back to the site in 1974 to reclaim my `booty` i had buried them in fertilizer sacks and had forgotten the fact that i had also buried my stash of shells (live) borrowed from one of the many centurion tanks that occupied the hangers behind our street.

A quick rebury was carried out of the shells, and a pile of festering helmets marked the spot for the M.P`s to find after a tip off

Ashley

[RobNZ]

Thanks for posting the pics for me Colin,
The Turtle is an MKIII with the high chinstrap attachments, the liner is very dry and cracked, and is dated inside TTC 1944 (teddy toy company),
The shell is unmarked as far as I can see. The chinstrap has been blancoed on one side, which is evident on the picture of the liner.
The paint appears to be original to the shell but I would appeciate your opinions.
I managed to pick this one up from Inside New Zealand.

RobNZ

[Blindpew]

I like the colour Rob, it's just that it looks so clean inside compared to the rather well used liner,I'm not used to seeing anything so 'minty'.

[force136]

Mkiii

Hi Guys,

I dont know about the paint? I do know surplus helmets were repainted after the war. All the untouched MKIII helmets I have had were always a grey colour, either a light grey or a dark grey. This includes many I have seen in Regimental museums here in Canada with unit markings on them. This said, British body manufacturers used a variety of colours. I dont think Canada was predominent in the use of the MKIII, I think many British units used them as well. That would be something to research. I know the Canadian assault units on 6 June used them while those that arrived later also had MKII. It may be good to find pictures of the British assault units on 6 June to see what they are wearing. I know in the unit history of my grandfathers regiment, the North Shores of New Brunswick, there is a cool picture of their CO inspecting one of their first MKIII helmets. I am not 100% certain when the IV started but they were worn during the Sheldt ( spelling ??) so this was the end of 1944.

Ken

PS Man its hot here in the great white north .

I like the colour Rob, it's just that it looks so clean inside compared to the rather well used liner,I'm not used to seeing anything so 'minty'.