Red WW2 Turtleshell. Firemans ?

[Blindpew]

Hi All,

Picked this up from E-bay.The seller ahd a few that had been a job lot, the other items were boat stuff and some firemans stuff.

The liner in this is dated 1940, and can only be described as very salty.
No stamps inside the shell, but I never expect to see any on these early Turtleshells, - I have seen 'stamped' shells from 1944, which is more the norm, but again I don't have a problem with these helmets due to lack of stamping.

My question is,
- Is this a firemans helmet due to the red colour? Or as someone has mentioned to me, there were some military auxilary units that used different colours on their helmets, although that was not elabirated on.(I'm suspecting some form of river fire protection unit or rescue crew).

Any thoughts or info appreciated.
Cheers

[Blindpew]

Salty inside,

[Blindpew]

Closer

[force136]

Mkiii

Closer

HI

If you note, the original paint is on the inside of the helmet. I extremely doubt this is a wartime firemans helmet. For one, there was a very limited number of these helmets available. Some units got them, others did not. The need for these helmets during 1944 was too great for the military to issue these to firemen. I would bet its a postwar paint job. Nice helmet though. BTW, liner dates in these helmets mean very little as they used old stock. However if you find a 43 or 44 dated liner in them it is more than likely an example made for these helmets. I know in Canada there are dealers that actually switch liners to the size you need from MK II helmets.

KJ

[Blindpew]

Hi KJ,
Thanks for swift reply.

I had thought the same as yourself that it was post-war paint job, it just that it has been so used I wouldn't have expected helmets like this to be in use after the war, especially with such an old liner in it.
I appreciated that dealers may switch liners and in amongst the 3 for sale, (all red), was another liner dated 1940, the other 1944.I really don't suspect any liner switching went on regarding this one.

It is a bit of a mystery.

[leigh kitchen]

I'd guess that it could be used by a units fire piquet.

The men detailed for guard duties at a camp would also be the Fire Piquet & would have to carry out a practise every duty under the eyes of the Regimental Police - running around with a bright red hose cart & wearing bright red lids.
These lids would sit in a guardroom & stay there for years, units would come & go but these things would just be handed over from one unit to another for decades.

As a point of interest - does the top screw show signs of having been removed in the recent past, should be a clue as to how long the liner's been in. I'd guess that something like this woul;d cost about £5 - £10, nothing much is achieved by the deception of sticking in an old liner unless there's a reasonable amount of money to be made.
Might be wrong, but that's my guess.

[Blindpew]

Hi Leigh,
Thats quite interesting. Would this happening during the war - or is that more likely post-war duties?
Is it possible that RAF fire rescue crews may have worn these?

I honestly expected the liner to have been removed at somepoint in its past and fully expected it, but on receipt of the helmet it was clear to me that it hadn't been removed.
The top scew and bottom bolt are solid, almost welded in with age.

If you can pick up any of these type of helmets for £5 - £10, I'll buy them all off you, providing your mark-ups not too great.

I put a slightly higher value on these 'early' turtleshells.
The later style ones go for the £5 - £10 region.

[Blindpew]

Next time I buy a camera it will have one of those marco functions.

[Blindpew]

inside close-up

[leigh kitchen]

I'd guess post war use, & possibly by RAF. Service firemen, fire piquets at a variety of service camps & bases, I suspect that it's impossible to say exactly where this was worn & who by, 'tho there must be photos of them somewhere in wear or hanging up outside a guardroom above a row of matching red sand bucket.
I'd agree that these lids should be more in value, what I mean is that they're the sort of thing that turn up for a few quid in surplus stores, but people will cotton on to what they are.
If somebody wants to fake a lid up I'd have thought they'd go for a standard green / brown version rather than a battered red.
Got a matching red fire bucket if you want it.
As an aside about 12 - 15 years ago I picked up a batch of about 50 or 60 "ordinary" green ones with oilskin liners from a surplus dealer on behalf of someone I knew - he wanted them for his army cadet unit, so he could hand them over in exchange for new kevlar lids.
Cost about £2 each or less.

[Blindpew]

Lol, I'll pass on the bucket, but thanks for the offer.

50 or 60 at £2 each not bad at all! Can you remember how many of them actually had the high riveted chinstrap hangers? - if any if they were the 'ordinary' ones.
This is the thing that messes my head a bit, as far as I know the high-chinstrap hangers were a known flaw in the design, they either broke,cracked the shell or created too much movement in the liner, thus the design was changed to the lower chinstrap hangers.One thing I would expect from the British army, is that they would withdraw flawed helmets from service and then maybe they would end up in surplus stores etc, but to actually go back into use again by any branch of the civilian services, I have my doubts.

[leigh kitchen]

Can't remember chinstrap details re the batch of lids, the helmets would have been cleared out of a store somewhere - those liners had'nt been in use with the regular infantry for at least a couple of decades I'd have thought, perhaps they were from a TA unit converting to kevlar.

Presumably your lid got sidelined away from a unit as such, being painted red & stuck in a camp or airfield guardroom, so that when units changed equipment it would'nt be exchanged because it was just a bit of kit that got signed over to the next unit along with the other stuff in the hut.

Thr reason my mate bought the helmets was because his cadet unit did'nt have any, or had very few tin lids, so he stocked up on the surplus ones & then presented them all for exchange for brand new kevlars, thus the tin lids were presumably just discarded again as obsolete surplus.

[Blindpew]

Thanks again Leigh.

The lids being lost amongst guardroom duties does make sense.

So far the fire piquet theory is hot favourate,(sorry for pun).

[force136]

Mkiii

Hi Guys

Actually MK III helmets are quite valuable, at least here in Canada. They fetch at least 150$ Cdn. Suppose thats about 60pds?? The MK IV is the more common type. These were made into the 50's I think. My Regiment still had a stock of them in the 80's while we wore the US M-1. These were for parade. These examples are usually painted black. The MK IVs have that lift the dot fastener for the liner.

Sure the British recycled helmets. The early "P" type para helmets with the flare at the sides and back were recycled. Once the MKI came out. There is a shot of a few "P" type shells that have had the fibre bands replaced with the MKI type.

Anyway its too bad you couldnt get the red paint off. It would make a nice late 43 -44 combat helmet. You can also see how this helmet had been stored for some time as it has the outline of the helmet it was sitting on on the underside.

I have seen unissued MKIII helmets here is Canada as well. It is interesting that they have 43 and 44 dated liners, the time of production.

KJ

Thanks again Leigh.

The lids being lost amongst guardroom duties does make sense.

So far the fire piquet theory is hot favourate,(sorry for pun).

[Blindpew]

Thanks for the additional input KJ.
I agree that the mark 3's more realistic value is nearer the £60.I have seen them go for more than that with divisional markings on them,(over £100). In my case this one I picked up for what I considered a bargin £16!
I had considered removing the red paint, but will probably leave for the meantime.Also I had briefly considered removing the liner to replace a 1949 liner in my other Mk3, but I've put that thought right outta my head now, although I would have been happier if the liners had been the other way about, it wouldn't have given as much doubt about post-war use.
The liners will be staying exactly the way they are.
Ideally I would like a Mk3 with '43 or '44 liner, and hopefully I'll come across one eventually.

Interesting info on the 'P' type helmet.Does anyone have a photo of one of these?

Here a photo of the rest of my Turtle shells, the bottom is another Mk3, which I had thought was wartime colour, but now suspect that it is a post-war green?(comments welcome).
The 3 on top are Mk4's, only the black one has a liner outta these 3.They are all dated 1952,'53.I actually suspect these may creep up in value one day when it's realised that some of these lids may have seen action in Korea.I paid less than £5 each for them.
These lids may be regarded common as muck, but I recommend sticking one or two away in the shed for the future.