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**compressore** · 06-19-2014, 02:51 PM

...according 45%% of the german population (without todays migrants) are from celtic origin and only 25% of germanic origin (based on the father side only 6% germanic). 30% of the population are of easter-europe origin (20% slavic and 10% others). The polish population have a much higher part of germanic origin (60 % germanic and 32 % slavic in Poland), Czeck Republic 50% germanic, 42% slavic).........based on the iGENA DNA genealogy, 10% of the german population has 10% jewish ancestors"

For the "jewish" DNA please remind that "jew" is not a race but a religion. But as jewish communities were mostly a closed circle, there are some patterns of DNA which are statistically higher among this group.

This overall outcome is not surprising to me if you look in our German history. I have done a lot of familiy resarch and I am happy to trace back my familiy unitl 1679. I found at least one typical jewish name in the branch of my mother at around 1710.

Germany has always been a melting pot of people from different areas. That is a fact.
Regards
Christian

**Josh Cowell** · 06-20-2014, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by compressore View Post

For the "jewish" DNA please remind that "jew" is not a race but a religion.

Not according to world renown Israeli geneticist Doron Behar at Rambam Medical Center, Israel amongst others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews
Him and other distinguished Jewish scholars have given seminars at Stanford regarding Jewish genes.
http://continuingstudies.stanford.ed...t.php?id=372&f

My ex Jewish American girl friend used to say something similar to what you said. "There is no race, only the human race." What a charming idea!

Thank you for your translation.

**Simon O.** · 06-20-2014, 01:46 AM

Any group of people that sticks to its own relatively small gene pool for reproduction will, over time, end up with its own distinct DNA and other hereditary features

**Josh Cowell** · 06-20-2014, 02:33 AM

Originally posted by Simon O. View Post

Any group of people that sticks to its own relatively small gene pool for reproduction will, over time, end up with its own distinct DNA and other hereditary features

You have hit the nail on the head of what genetics and "race" mean. Most races that make up humanity are therefore made up of groups of people who share their own distinct DNA. For example, East Asians, temperate Europeans etc share distinct DNA amongst each other that distinguish them from others.

PS. A most recent study finds that northern Europeans carry around 15% East Asian DNA which traveled west from Siberia around 10,000-8.000 years ago. We are after all united somehow.
http://www.nature.com/news/ancient-e...cestry-1.14456

**Klaus Richter** · 06-20-2014, 07:04 PM

I always thought that most European Ashkenazi Jews were ethnically primarily European, that is Germanic, Slavic, Celt, Latin, ext...with some genetic elements of Semitic ethnicity from the time of the diaspora. After being in Europe for such a long time there is no way, no matter how tight these communities were, that they would still be mostly ethnically Semitic, such as the Arabs. I always felt that it is now more of a religious and/or cultural identity.

**Josh Cowell** · 06-21-2014, 02:35 AM

Originally posted by Klaus Richter View Post

I always thought that most European Ashkenazi Jews were ethnically primarily European, that is Germanic, Slavic, Celt, Latin, ext...with some genetic elements of Semitic ethnicity from the time of the diaspora. After being in Europe for such a long time there is no way, no matter how tight these communities were, that they would still be mostly ethnically Semitic, such as the Arabs. I always felt that it is now more of a religious and/or cultural identity.

No. According to the article I posted and other geneticists that's not at all the case. In fact, Ashkenazi males are 80% Middle Eastern DNA. Eventhough Ashkenazi jews spent a lot of time in Europe, they practiced endogamy to such a great degree that not only have they mostly maintained their original DNA, they are also highly prone to diseases like Tay Sachs and breast cancer.

Here's an article by Haaretz titled "DNA links prove Jews are a 'race,' says genetics expert" (Professor Harry Ostrer.)
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/...xpert-1.428664

According to the article, the idea of Jewishness as a religious/cultural identity "was part of an attempt by post-World War II Jewish liberals to reconfigure Jews not as a biological group, but as a religious ideology and ethnic identity."

**Josh Cowell** · 06-21-2014, 04:24 AM

Originally posted by Josh Cowell View Post

*Nach neuesten DNA-Analysen müssen offensichtlich althergebrachte Geschichtsbilder revidiert werden. Viel dazu haben die Völkerwanderungen des XX. Jahrhundert beigetragen. Demnach sind heute 45 % der Deutschen (ohne heutige Einwanderer), keltischer und nur 25 % germanischer Herkunft (väterlicherseits sogar nur 6 % eines germanischen Ursprungs). 30 % der Deutschen stammen von Osteuropäern (20 % Slawen und 10 % Andere) ab. Die Bevölkerungen in Polen (60 % Germanen und 32 % Slawen) und der Tschechischen Republik (50 % Germanen und 42 % Slawen) weisen einen deutlich höheren Anteil germanischer Wurzeln als die Deutschen selbst. Offensichtlich sind viele ostgermanische Stämme doch nicht ausgewandert und schon gar nicht ausgestorben, sondern mit der Zeit nur polonisiert worden. Lediglich die ostgermanischen Sprachen sind mit der Zeit ausgestorben. Nach der iGENEA DNA-Genealogie hat 10 % Deutscher jüdische Vorfahren.*
German-Bohemian Heritage Society

By the way, I just got word that the above German article is totally wrong. Please ignore it. I've been told to "forget these statistics from Swiss iGENEA. There was no study behind at all. They simply announced this a few years ago without any scientific background. They assumed every R1b was Celtic, every J was Jewish and so on .... They deleted these statistics some years ago without explanation by the way. They successfully used it before in order to be mentioned in media, but it was wrong however, as we know today. Haplogroups are much older than the Germanic, Celtic tribes etc. Germans are certainly a mixture of Germanic, Celtic, Slavic, some Jewish and other origins, but iGENEA figures were simply nonsense. Have a look on GEDmatch, Eurogenes, Dienekes, Eupedia etc. and you will have a much better picture"

Sorry for posting the original post. Sorry for the confusion everyone.
PS. The other links to articles I posted are correct and valid studies.

**Klaus Richter** · 06-21-2014, 07:00 PM

The article doesn't state that 80% of their DNA is Semitic. It states that 80% of males and 50% of females can trace their DNA origins back to the middle east, that is completely different. That means that most Aschkenazi Jews have traces of Semitic DNA, yet are still mostly mixed with other European ethnic groups, and I believe mostly European. Here is a quote from the article:

"Why, then, are Jews so different looking, usually sharing the characteristics of the surrounding populations? Think of red-haired Jews, Jews with blue eyes or the black Jews of Africa. Like any cluster — a genetic term Ostrer uses in place of the more inflammatory “race” — Jews throughout history moved around and fooled around, although mixing occurred comparatively infrequently until recent decades. Although there are identifiable gene variations that are common among Jews, we are not a “pure” race. The time machine of our genes may show that most Jews have a shared ancestry that traces back to ancient Palestine but, like all of humanity, Jews are mutts.
About 80% of Jewish males and 50% of Jewish females trace their ancestry back to the Middle East. The rest entered the “Jewish gene pool” through conversion or intermarriage."

Either way, even if they still had mostly Semitic DNA, like the Arabs for example, that would simply make them of a different ETHNIC group, not RACE. Semites are still part of the Caucasian Race.

**Josh Cowell** · 06-22-2014, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by Klaus Richter View Post

The article doesn't state that 80% of their DNA is Semitic. It states that 80% of males and 50% of females can trace their DNA origins back to the middle east, that is completely different. That means that most Aschkenazi Jews have traces of Semitic DNA, yet are still mostly mixed with other European ethnic groups, and I believe mostly European. Here is a quote from the article:

"Why, then, are Jews so different looking, usually sharing the characteristics of the surrounding populations? Think of red-haired Jews, Jews with blue eyes or the black Jews of Africa. Like any cluster — a genetic term Ostrer uses in place of the more inflammatory “race” — Jews throughout history moved around and fooled around, although mixing occurred comparatively infrequently until recent decades. Although there are identifiable gene variations that are common among Jews, we are not a “pure” race. The time machine of our genes may show that most Jews have a shared ancestry that traces back to ancient Palestine but, like all of humanity, Jews are mutts.
About 80% of Jewish males and 50% of Jewish females trace their ancestry back to the Middle East. The rest entered the “Jewish gene pool” through conversion or intermarriage."

Either way, even if they still had mostly Semitic DNA, like the Arabs for example, that would simply make them of a different ETHNIC group, not RACE. Semites are still part of the Caucasian Race.

No, as the article states right after it says jews like everyone else are mutts, it immediately states "although mixing occurred comparatively infrequently until recent decades." So the muttines is relative and in fact Ashkenazi jews remain very much the same as they were originally. It's right there in the article. You cannot deny that.

2) And when the article states that 80% males and 50% females among the Ashkenazi can trace their ancestry back to the middle east it means that their DNA, most likely Y DNA J2, is different from the DNA of temperate Europeans, who's Y DNA is mostly R1a1, I1 and I2. Since Y DNA is passed down the male line and never changes for millenia, the differences clearly indicate different origins for temperate Europeans and Ashkenazim. If there had been more mixing there would be more Europe specific Y DNA such as R1a1a and R1B instead of J2 among Ashkenazi jews. This would also have been the case with the mtDNA which is exclusively passed down from mothers to their children, but it is clearly not.

2) The article also states that due to endogamy, the Ashkenazi have basically stayed true to their origins even though they've lived in Europe for centuries. Endogamy means they haven't mixed much with Europeans, but instead perpetuated their overall biological identity. The article says "Jews, he (Dr. Ostrer) notes, are one of the most distinctive population groups in the world because of our history of endogamy. Jews — Ashkenazim in particular — are relatively homogeneous despite the fact that they are spread throughout Europe and have since immigrated to the Americas and back to Israel."

3)And as the article also states, this very endogamy is why Ashkenazi are unfortunately prone to diseases like Tay Sachs and breast cancer. These are all due to the fact that they have not changed much since they left the middle east. Ie. Not mixing much with indigenous Europeans, which is what the article also states when it says "Today, Jews remain identifiable in large measure by the 40 or so diseases we disproportionately carry, the inescapable consequence of inbreeding."

So, in conclusion, the article and thus Dr. Ostrer states that the Ashkenazi, due to their practice of endogamy, have biologically remained more or less true to their origins despite the fact that they have lived in European host societies for centuries. This fully complements the findings that among the Ashkenazi, males are 80% and females 50% middle eastern in origin. Endogamy and homogenity are the key points of this article. You cannot manipulate the facts from the article to conclude otherwise since the facts are right there.

4)If Semites are not a race, then neither are East Asians or Africans. We are in fact all homo sapiens, since we all descended from a small band of Africans who migrated out of Africa 75,000 years ago. And Dr. Ostrer in the article suggests Jews are a race. The article states "Ostrer, who is also director of genetic and genomic testing at Montefiore Medical Center, goes further, maintaining that Jews are a homogeneous group with all the scientific trappings of what we used to call a “race.”

And yes, Semites are considered Caucasian along with South Asians and west Asians such as Iranians etc, but the labels Caucasian, Mongoloid and Negroid are superficial constructs invented by modern western anthropologists to simplify categorization and labeling in the lab. These labels are meaningless in the real world.

I respect Ashkenazi Jews because they are proud of their culture and history and traditionally try hard to pass it down to their children. I think we can all learn positive things from them.

**Josh Cowell** · 06-22-2014, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by Klaus Richter View Post

The article doesn't state that 80% of their DNA is Semitic. It states that 80% of males and 50% of females can trace their DNA origins back to the middle east, that is completely different. That means that most Aschkenazi Jews have traces of Semitic DNA, yet are still mostly mixed with other European ethnic groups, and I believe mostly European.

1)No, it does not at all mean Jews are mostly mixed with European ethnic groups. It means the opposite. When the article says 80% male and 50% female Ashkenazi can trace their ancestry to the middle East this means their ancestry is mostly non European. Haplogroup DNA remains the same. That's how we trace a population's origins.

2)And you cannot have just "traces" of Semitic DNA. You either have Semitic DNA or non Semitic DNA. There is no in between. DNA is passed down both on the father's and mother's side as Y DNA and mtDNA respectively. It cannot be mixed with other DNA to form some sort of hybrid or diluted. If your father was y DNA J2 then his original ancestor had J2 and so will you. If you are not J2, then he is not your biological father. Same goes with mtDNA on your mother's side.

As the article clearly states on several occasions, Ashkenazi Jews are on the whole a homogenous group and therefore quite distinct from Europeans.

**Klaus Richter** · 06-22-2014, 11:48 AM

Then what is your definition of "race" compared with "ethnicity?" Or is it one and the same thing? Isn't Caucasian considered the "race" and Celt, Germanic, Semitic, ext...considered the ethnicity? That is why I said I believe they are still more or less the same race, though mixed with different ethnic groups...

**SSamir** · 06-22-2014, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by compressore View Post

or the "jewish" DNA please remind that "jew" is not a race but a religion.

I respectfully disagree with you. I live in a Jewish neighborhood, have been for a while now, and according to the rabbis, Judaism is a race and religion, and he stated that its through the mother that one can be recognized as Jewish. Your probably confusing Islam, that's a religion, not a race.

Regards
Samir

**SSamir** · 06-22-2014, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by Klaus Richter View Post

I always thought that most European Ashkenazi Jews were ethnically primarily European, that is Germanic, Slavic, Celt, Latin, ext...with some genetic elements of Semitic ethnicity from the time of the diaspora. After being in Europe for such a long time there is no way, no matter how tight these communities were, that they would still be mostly ethnically Semitic, such as the Arabs. I always felt that it is now more of a religious and/or cultural identity.

Arabs and Jews are both semites, both children of Abraham. What seperates the two are the mothers: Sara is the mother of the Jews and Hagar, mother of the Arabs.

**Jean-Loup** · 06-23-2014, 01:56 PM

It is quite unsettling to see Jews talking about "Jewish DNA" and "pure races"; it sounds like a negative version of Nazi propaganda.

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Translation of German DNA origins please.

Translation of German DNA origins please.

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