Rochus Misch dies at 96 !

[PANZER332]

Honour the man? For what reason can I ask, he was a very small cog at the epicentre of a very large war machine that destroyed most of Europe and directly or indirectly killed some 50 million people.
His only claim to fame is that he outlasted all other "Bunker Dwellers" in the final stages of the war and in the latter period of his life, dwelled in the limelight that it gave him, with all the "Groupies" which seem follow him.
In the end he was a member of an organisation deemed to be criminal and purely Nazi in nature, who wore the same uniforms and totenkopf insignia as those that murdered countless people. I'm sure that as a post-war civilian he was a very, very nice man, but to suddenly thrust him into some God-like personality is a bit silly.
His book I've not seen yet (English version) but I will search it out as I'm sure it will make entertaining reading. The problem with AUTObiographies, you put in the bits you want people to read, and have selective memory loss about the bits you don't want people to read, unlike independent biographies with full research

Maybe a bit controversial to some but that's reality

This is way too funny

[BrianK]

Somehow I was under the impression that a English language edition was going to be published in October - guess I was wrong.

[dmytro]

dmytro, Western juridical tradition is based on the principle of individual responsibility, not of collective responsibility. Hence mr. Misch was responsible for only his personal actions, not for the actions of anyone else. As for an "organization deemed criminal", since one of the "deemers" included a certain mr. Stalin, do you consider the verdict an objective one?

Destroyed most of Europe? Please, get real! You are apparently one of those who believe that Finland is guilty of slavery because Finns supplied tar to many slave carrying ships. Besides, war itself is not illegal even today.

Hi I am trying to be objective and not subjective, what happened or not in Finland is not part of the discussion.

The trials at Nurnburg deemed the SS, be it Alg, SS VT or Waffen SS a criminal organisation full stop. Historically, conscription into the Wehrmacht was compulsory, be it Heer Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine and hundreds of thousands of German soldiers fought and died in the belief that they were fighting for their country and family, fed by false propaganda by Hitler and his odious little poisoned Dwarf Goebbels.

Entry into the SS however was voluntary, you applied to join (Unless someone can prove me wrong), it was and always remained a political and idealogical organisation, whose oath of allegiance was to A: Adolf Hitler, B: National Socialist Idealogy, it was a political army. Herr Misch chose to join and in the end became a member of that ideological force, whose members, once again all wore basically the same uniform and had similar ideological aspirations to eradicate "Enemy's of the state" be they Soviet soldiers or persons deemed "Untermensch"

I am not suggesting for one second that Herr Misch had any direct involvement in the Genocide the organisation he belonged to perpetrated, but unfortunately guilt by association is what happens. I have seen many interviews on documentaries with Herr Misch and yes, he does come over as a very nice affable gentleman. His passing was of course inevitable, but I re-iterate that to somehow put him on a God-like pedestal is SILLY
regards

[dmytro]

This is way too funny

Panzer 332, In what way can I ask?, is it too bizzare for you to comprehend or do you sleep under a knitted Hakenkreuz Duvet surrounded by mannequins all dressed up in Liebstandarte ceremonial dress uniforms? your input is welcome

[dmytro]

I don't think Albert Speer is a role model - he should have been hung since his guilt was as much as the ones who were. I guess this is the WAF anti-Misch thread.

Well put, It is NOT an anti Misch thread but with real open discussion a chance to examine and re-evaluate details as known. I personally don't think however that Misch was at the centre of things in any decision making, he was a funcker in the end at a lower level, that just chose to join the wrong side and got lucky As a member of the SS, he will always remained tainted
Comments have been made about his time in Soviet captivity and his ill-treatment (Blah Blah), (Together with Guensche and Linge). Wear the uniform, observe the political doctrine, what the hell can you expect? a holiday camp on the Black sea?! the organisation he belonged to murdered millions of people, does anyone really imagine that he would be fed with fairy cakes and caviar?

As a side point Speer should have swung with the rest of the criminals, he was, in the end just lucky

[Terry OToole]

lots of SS men were conscripted or simply moved into it from another regular outfit !

[Obersalzberg]

Panzer 332, In what way can I ask?, is it too bizzare for you to comprehend or do you sleep under a knitted Hakenkreuz Duvet surrounded by mannequins all dressed up in Liebstandarte ceremonial dress uniforms? your input is welcome

You need to respect other peoples opinions. If you hate it so much and cannot respect many of these warriors what the hell are you doing on this site?

[dmytro]

lots of SS men were conscripted or simply moved into it from another regular outfit !

So by your own guidelines, he was "Forced" into the Waffen SS against his own wishes?. Seems a bit unlikely

[dmytro]

You need to respect other peoples opinions. If you hate it so much and cannot respect many of these warriors what the hell are you doing on this site?

I DO respect others peoples opinions that is why this conversation is still going on, that doesn't mean that I have to accept all the Sh*te being spouted. Warriors? by his own admission Herr Misch said he was glad to be withdrawn from the battlefront to some safe hole in the ground with a phone stuck to his head for the rest of the war, a true NS warrior it seems!!

I am a member of this site because I believed that it would allow me to see into many aspects of the period and as a collector of military history learn from the many people who have spent a lifetime researching, collecting and collating genuine information to help in the understanding of the period and the people who ACTUALLY lived through those times, not keyboard junkies as you obviously seem to be. It doesn't matter to me, I can offer my membership resignation because in the end your sort just brings the forum into disrepute with your bigoted views,
I suggest that at this moment in time 02.03 am UK time you snuggle under your NS duvet and have pleasant dreams of European conquest. you are the first person who has ever made me actually want to leave a forum because of your totally screwey views, without any substance to back them up

[Tora_Tora_Tora!]

I really find incredible to politicize a thread opened simply to remember a Man.
Doesn't matter which flag served, he was at first a Man who passed away and we must pay respect to him.

[BrianK]

70 posts in the book review forum and no one has read the book.

[Tony R]

Was Rochus Misch the last of the Führerbunker survivors? In the early 1980s I lived in Malta. One of my favourite watering holes was the bar of a small hotel. There, I met a German lady. I had noticed her before. She was always alone and during her last evening on the island I invited her to join me. We left the hotel and ended up at another bar. At the time I was not so knowledgeable about the Second World War. Taking that into account, our alcohol consumption, and the fact that more than thirty years have passed, it is understandable that details of that night have become very hazy. Somehow we began to talk about the war, during which time my companion had lived in Berlin. I wrongly assumed she must have then been a schoolgirl (she looked younger than her age). No, she told me, in 1945 she was a young woman. At first she seemed reluctant to discuss her past. She maintained she had not spoken to anyone about the war years for a long time; that people in Germany were simply not interested. Hers was a remarkable tale. She told me she had been employed at the Führerbunker. I think she said she was a switchboard operator, or a telephonist, or similar. She described to me her escape from the bunker. She became quite emotional. When I asked if she had met Adolf Hitler, she replied that she had encountered him in the course of her work. It was evident that she found it difficult to accept how Hitler has been demonised. Hitler, she maintained, had achieved much for Germany. But what impressed me was her insistence that Adolf Hitler was not the raving madman he is portrayed to be. He was always a gentleman, she said, and courteous, especially to the ladies. Those are but a few details from a long conversation. I do not recall the name of this very interesting lady. I did write to Herr Misch in case he could help in identifying her, but I never received a response. Is the mystery lady still alive? Who knows?

[Gary Jucha]

e

Emotive and irrelevant ....

You need to respect other peoples opinions. If you hate it so much and cannot respect many of these warriors what the hell are you doing on this site?

[Obersalzberg]

I DO respect others peoples opinions that is why this conversation is still going on, that doesn't mean that I have to accept all the Sh*te being spouted. Warriors? by his own admission Herr Misch said he was glad to be withdrawn from the battlefront to some safe hole in the ground with a phone stuck to his head for the rest of the war, a true NS warrior it seems!!

I am a member of this site because I believed that it would allow me to see into many aspects of the period and as a collector of military history learn from the many people who have spent a lifetime researching, collecting and collating genuine information to help in the understanding of the period and the people who ACTUALLY lived through those times, not keyboard junkies as you obviously seem to be. It doesn't matter to me, I can offer my membership resignation because in the end your sort just brings the forum into disrepute with your bigoted views,
I suggest that at this moment in time 02.03 am UK time you snuggle under your NS duvet and have pleasant dreams of European conquest. you are the first person who has ever made me actually want to leave a forum because of your totally screwey views, without any substance to back them up

Your last sentence fills me with great hope!

[pasoleati]

Hi I am trying to be objective and not subjective, what happened or not in Finland is not part of the discussion.

The trials at Nurnburg deemed the SS, be it Alg, SS VT or Waffen SS a criminal organisation full stop. Historically, conscription into the Wehrmacht was compulsory, be it Heer Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine and hundreds of thousands of German soldiers fought and died in the belief that they were fighting for their country and family, fed by false propaganda by Hitler and his odious little poisoned Dwarf Goebbels.

Entry into the SS however was voluntary, you applied to join (Unless someone can prove me wrong), it was and always remained a political and idealogical organisation, whose oath of allegiance was to A: Adolf Hitler, B: National Socialist Idealogy, it was a political army. Herr Misch chose to join and in the end became a member of that ideological force, whose members, once again all wore basically the same uniform and had similar ideological aspirations to eradicate "Enemy's of the state" be they Soviet soldiers or persons deemed "Untermensch"

I am not suggesting for one second that Herr Misch had any direct involvement in the Genocide the organisation he belonged to perpetrated, but unfortunately guilt by association is what happens. I have seen many interviews on documentaries with Herr Misch and yes, he does come over as a very nice affable gentleman. His passing was of course inevitable, but I re-iterate that to somehow put him on a God-like pedestal is SILLY
regards

You might try to be objective, but you fail to do so. First, you are making of the most serious errors by trying to view historical events from the end result point of view. I.e. you take the end result and then rate everything prior to that by it. One example of that is your continued appeal to the rulings of the IMT and then rate Misch's membership by it.

Second, your comment on "similar aspirations to eradicate..." is an utter stupidity as it represents an oversimplification of motives to such extreme that only religious dogmas can reach. If you really believe that everyone joined the SS and/or the NSDAP to see Jews annihilated or other similar ends, then you are beyond any hope.

Third, it is quite irrelevant to overblow the SS oath's allegiance to Hitler for he was, after all, the Supreme Commander of the German armed forces. What is more, all Waffen-SS units were part of the Wehrmacht chain of command. On the other hand, the Soviet Army was purely an ideological army. Just do a comparison between the RKKA and the Waffen-SS and you will see the crucial differences.

Fourth, if we really want to split hairs, the US Army was and is an ideological army. Just read the oath:"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

I.e. the allegiance is to the Constitution of the United States, a political and therefore ideological concept, not the to state of US. It also states an unwavering loyalty to the President of the United States.

Now, the Waffen-SS oath is as per an internet translation:"I swear to thee Adolf Hitler

As Fuhrer and Chancellor of the German Reich

Loyalty and Bravery.

I vow to thee and to the superiors whom thou shall appoint

Obedience until death

So help me God"

Though the name of Hitler is mentioned, the actual allegiance is obviously to "Führer and Chancellor of the German Reich", i.e. to the head of state and Supreme Commander.