United 93

[Wizard]

What's always puzzled me is this. The so called extremists say the People want things the way they (were), the Democratic countries say the Iraqi people want our way of life.
I wonder if anyone thought about asking THEM what they want

Kinda like the poor child being ordered around by two parents that feel they know what the child wants yet wont listen or ask ....

Yes, exactly. Because the child, or in this case, the populace, honestly does not have enough understanding or experience to know what's good for them.

[Darrell]

Yes, exactly. Because the child, or in this case, the populace, honestly does not have enough understanding or experience to know what's good for them.

Huh?

I would imagine anything is better than bombs going off killing people every day .... they would rather have that?

[theinglebaby23]

You guys have got to be kidding me!

"the populace, honestly does not have enough understanding or experience to know what's good for them."

The people there totally know what they want! Why they were hoping we would overthrow Saddam in the 90's. That's why tons of them are in the Iraqi military, and why we saw how many million people turn out to vote months ago!

[Wizard]

You guys have got to be kidding me!

"the populace, honestly does not have enough understanding or experience to know what's good for them."

The people there totally know what they want! Why they were hoping we would overthrow Saddam in the 90's. That's why tons of them are in the Iraqi military, and why we saw how many million people turn out to vote months ago!

You are misquoting me. I said earlier that Saddam was a tyrant. Getting rid of him was a good thing and something a lot of people wanted.

Installing a democratic goverment versus one based on the fundamentalist muslim religion is a tough choice. When I said the populace don't understand, I meant that there is a lot in politics that people don't know, or don't see. Given the choices, most people would choose democracy. Along with that freedom, they don't see the negative repercussions (mentioned above by me) that comes along with it. That's all.

My question still stands, do you believe it was right of us to install a democratic government without letting the people decide what kind of government they want in the first place?

[Wizard]

Huh?

I would imagine anything is better than bombs going off killing people every day .... they would rather have that?

Hello Darrell. Not sure what you meant. My comment only expanded on what you said about the child ordered around by two parents(US/muslim fundamentalist). The child(populace) gets ordered around because he/she doesn't know any better. How does bombs fit into this scenario?

[Darrell]

Hello Darrell. Not sure what you meant. My comment only expanded on what you said about the child ordered around by two parents(US/muslim fundamentalist). The child(populace) gets ordered around because he/she doesn't know any better. How does bombs fit into this scenario?

All I'm saying is this ...

What is worse ...

a. Always under constant fear that an Extremist will come in and take away a family member because they support the Democratic way of life,

b. Always under fear that they get caught in the crossfire between the US forces and Extremists,

c. Always under fear that a roadside bomb or suicide bomber takes you with them while attempted to target US forces,

OR

d. Life under Saddam.

[Darrell]

All I'm saying is this ...

What is worse ...

a. Always under constant fear that an Extremist will come in and take away a family member because they support the Democratic way of life,

b. Always under fear that they get caught in the crossfire between the US forces and Extremists,

c. Always under fear that a roadside bomb or suicide bomber takes you with them while attempted to target US forces,

OR

d. Life under Saddam.

I don't know what option they would pick ... I wonder if anyone else does?

[Lucky Duck]

All I'm saying is this ...

What is worse ...

a. Always under constant fear that an Extremist will come in and take away a family member because they support the Democratic way of life,

b. Always under fear that they get caught in the crossfire between the US forces and Extremists,

c. Always under fear that a roadside bomb or suicide bomber takes you with them while attempted to target US forces,

OR

d. Life under Saddam.

I pick option a, b AND c, simply because there is hope for the future. Under option D there was only Uday and Qusay to look forward to.

Anyway that's no longer an option, heh.

[theinglebaby23]

Wiz- Sorry, misread you. However, people think that we are installing a mirror-image of US Democracy there. I've spoken to vets and have been told that it is totally an unique Iraqi government. I know we're helping them along, but they're making the decisions. They have to, ie. they have to find a government that can deal with three different major religions, etc. Interesting point, I actually had'nt though of it.

Think of the founders of this country and their options:

A. Starvation if the economy now flops w/out British support
B. Death or other abuse from criminals roaming the country without fear of consequence.
C. Pretty ugly death or imprisonment for supporting the 'rebeling colonies.'

(note: I read somewhere what happened to the original signers of the Dec of Indep.... nearly every one of them had their homes burned and taken away and/or family killed)

or

D. Support the British crown.

Again, these choices aren't easy, they take a lot of courage and sacrifice. However, true patriots dig down deep inside and realize the price they must pay to be free, and accept the consequences.

I asked my Iraqi friend how his family (still in Bagdad) and Iraqis in general feel about all the car bombings and stuff. He said exactly that they understand that's the price they have to pay in order to be free.

No government in the world who bases its control on fear throughout history has ever suceeded, all have failed because ordinary people will eventually give whatever sacrifice is necissary to overthrow such a regime.

[Wizard]

All I'm saying is this ...

What is worse ...

a. Always under constant fear that an Extremist will come in and take away a family member because they support the Democratic way of life,

b. Always under fear that they get caught in the crossfire between the US forces and Extremists,

c. Always under fear that a roadside bomb or suicide bomber takes you with them while attempted to target US forces,

OR

d. Life under Saddam.

Okay Darrell, are you saying that the people would prefer choice "D" over "bombs" when you said "I would imagine anything is better than bombs going off killing people every day .... they would rather have that?"

If that is the case, you just proved my point that the populace lacks understanding. Sure, for the moment, things are worse than they were when Saddam was in power. Not all places have water and electricity. Indiscriminate acts of violence. Lootings. Foreign fighters running amok. But why not look ahead into the future to how things might be? With the US presence, there is an overwhelming chance that prospects will be bright in the future. Had Saddam remained in power today, you know it'll be more of the same.

[Darrell]

Okay Darrell, are you saying that the people would prefer choice "D" over "bombs" when you said "I would imagine anything is better than bombs going off killing people every day .... they would rather have that?"

If that is the case, you just proved my point that the populace lacks understanding. Sure, for the moment, things are worse than they were when Saddam was in power. Not all places have water and electricity. Indiscriminate acts of violence. Lootings. Foreign fighters running amok. But why not look ahead into the future to how things might be? With the US presence, there is an overwhelming chance that prospects will be bright in the future. Had Saddam remained in power today, you know it'll be more of the same.

Hey Wizard, I'm with you. I'm not saying Sadam was the better choice. I'm not saying the people of Iraq are saying that was the better choice.

It seems "we" are always the ones that know whats better for "them" than they do themselves. As far as a "future" ... Iraq is NOT the US or any other Democratic Nation. Iraq will NEVER be the Democratic nation of the US, Canada or anywhere else.

As long as the US is there, this unrest will go on forever. You are NOT ever going to shoot the last Insurgent and return all to peace and tranquility. If the US pulled out ... guess what would happen? If the US Army cannot bring peace to this nation, what is the Iraqi government going to do? It's going to be one bitter coup after another until some "Sadam" that wields enough power takes over again. Not much of a future if you ask me.

It's easy for us to sit back and offer them hope for the future. I wonder when the US microphone is gone, what they really think or say?

Just food for thought.

P.S. This has a modern version of Vietnam written all over it. Same type of warfare used by the Insurgents as the VietCong. Hit and run. I hope for all involved it doesnt have the same outcome ....

[Wizard]

Wiz- Sorry, misread you. However, people think that we are installing a mirror-image of US Democracy there. I've spoken to vets and have been told that it is totally an unique Iraqi government. I know we're helping them along, but they're making the decisions. They have to, ie. they have to find a government that can deal with three different major religions, etc. Interesting point, I actually had'nt though of it.

Hello inglebaby23, no apologies. I enjoy your viewpoint. Mirror-image or not, unique or not, the government is still democratic - am I right?

My point is, did we know for sure that the people didn't want a theocracy - where the mullahs decide what's good for the people, or did we decide for them? I'd bet the latter. For the same reason, we got rid of the Taliban and installed a democratically elected Karzhai (sp?).

This is interesting. I didn't realize this issue either until I asked Col Russell those questions.

[Wizard]

It seems "we" are always the ones that know whats better for "them" than they do themselves. As far as a "future" ... Iraq is NOT the US or any other Democratic Nation. Iraq will NEVER be the Democratic nation of the US, Canada or anywhere else.

As long as the US is there, this unrest will go on forever. You are NOT ever going to shoot the last Insurgent and return all to peace and tranquility. If the US pulled out ... guess what would happen? If the US Army cannot bring peace to this nation, what is the Iraqi government going to do? It's going to be one bitter coup after another until some "Sadam" that wields enough power takes over again. Not much of a future if you ask me.

P.S. This has a modern version of Vietnam written all over it. Same type of warfare used by the Insurgents as the VietCong. Hit and run. I hope for all involved it doesnt have the same outcome ....

Very insightful Darrell. I guess that depends on who you go to for your source of information, the press or the soldiers. I hope Col Russell or theingelbaby23 can answer this for you.

As for the Vietnam scenario, I am afraid you are right. It is the smart thing for the terrorists to do. If you can't beat an army head on, you wage a guerilla style warfare. So basically, it comes down to their fighters versus our willpower.

[Darrell]

Very insightful Darrell. I guess that depends on who you go to for your source of information, the press or the soldiers. I hope Col Russell or theingelbaby23 can answer this for you.

As for the Vietnam scenario, I am afraid you are right. It is the smart thing for the terrorists to do. If you can't beat an army head on, you wage a guerilla style warfare. So basically, it comes down to their fighters versus our willpower.

It seems to be a never ending cycle ...

Not Learning from Histories mistakes makes one prone to repeat them ....