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    #46
    I completely disagree that age is an indication of quality of memory.

    I have had, and continue to have, the good fortune of interviewing many WWII veterans - and not just US.

    You would be surprised what these men in their late 80s / early 90s can remember. Detail down to names, specific locations, casualties, etc.



    Originally posted by TP Alexander View Post
    Keep cool everybody, keep cool!
    This all happened 70 or more years ago and I am sure we could debate other war atrocities that have happened since then too. Bombing and shelling of Korean civilians by the US as they withdrew in front of the No. Korean advance, My Lai, the world ignoring the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, etc. There are always two sides to a story and both of them can always have their relative merits. It just depends on what 'piece of soil' you are standing on, to speak metaphorically.
    What I find interesting is that they are interviewing people that are at least 90 years old. How many people do you know in their 90's that aren't lost in the throes of dementia or Alzheimer's? Even if they are still relatively cognizant, I sincerely doubt that they can recall events from over 70 years ago with a precision that will be meaningful and worthwhile in any way.

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      #47
      Originally posted by JanC View Post
      In 1945 there were several prisoner camps in Germany. Thousands POW were killed or were just being neglected they would die of starvation. Those POW were exposed to all weather conditions (heath, direct sun, rain, snow, wind...). All their military belongings were taken away (half shelter, overcoat,...).
      Drunk GI (mostly services personnel that did not see combat) shot Germans for no reason. Just to kill some so they could tell later great war stories...
      Change the date to 1942/44 and it applied ten fold to what the Germans did to Russian POW's. In war payback is a bitch. J

      Comment

        #48
        Originally posted by TP Alexander View Post
        I think you hit the wrong 'quote' button, because I said nothing about Soviet POWs. As far as Himmler is concerned, I think he took poison because he was a coward and didn't want to face the music. I think that if you were correct about Hemingway's hereditary psychological issues, I was speculating about how A), he might have finally figured out that he was wrong for shooting men in the back and B)he may have felt at the time that what he was doing was alright, although he didn't even have the excuse of being a soldier in the service of his country...although I can't think of any circumstance where a guy that is running away and presents his back to you can be a legitimate target.
        That's all I got to say on the subject.
        Yes I did quote the wrong person sorry, I will try again !

        Comment

          #49
          Originally posted by JanC View Post
          I remember bastard Eisenhower saying: Let's kill every single German...

          In 1945 there were several prisoner camps in Germany. Thousands POW were killed or were just being neglected they would die of starvation. Those POW were exposed to all weather conditions (heath, direct sun, rain, snow, wind...). All their military belongings were taken away (half shelter, overcoat,...).
          Drunk GI (mostly services personnel that did not see combat) shot Germans for no reason. Just to kill some so they could tell later great war stories...
          You mention German POWs starving in camps in 1945, who do you feel should be held responsible for the hundreds of thousands of Soviet POW's who died at the hands of the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front ?

          Comment

            #50
            What did Stalin do to any repatriated Red Army POWs? He killed them....

            Stalin was Hitler's tutor, and his crimes (most of which predate Hitler's) were known by the West long before he was fondly called Uncle Joe by FDR.

            Anyone ever notice the relationship of when Eisenhower opened the camps along the Rhine as compared to the liberation of Dachau?

            How many German civilians starved to death after WWI hostilities ended because of the Royal Navy's continued blockade of German ports to intentionally prevent much needed food to come in?
            Last edited by Willi Z.; 02-05-2016, 09:32 AM.
            Willi

            Preußens Gloria!

            sigpic

            Sapere aude

            Comment

              #51
              War is horrible, plain and simple. Guilty and innocent die on all sides, with accompanying acts of atrocity and bravery. Out of context, relying on subjective historical accounts, we are in an impossible position to judge - nor is it necessarily our role (IMHO).

              The majority were very young men, fighting an enemy that was dehumanized through their training. Add to that adrenalin, fear, and the overwhelming urge to survive, and I suspect many of us would do things we'd later regret.

              The moment you start thinking of others as fundamentally different than you, I think it ushers in frightening possibilities. From the best to the worst, they were all people, like us. Difference is, they were put in horrific circumstances, under extreme stress, for extended periods.

              Nobody knows how they will react in those conditions - except those that have been there.

              Without trying to be provocative, every side had soldiers that served honorably and decently. Certainly there are cases where that clearly didn't happen - for which there is no excuse.

              I'm merely advocating that we use caution when we start talking about "worse".

              Comment

                #52
                gentlemen,

                I could add a million or many more of German POWs or civilians

                murderedand or killed AFTER the war ended and AFTER

                the Nuernberg / Malmedy trials !!

                Just in Leningrad six German officers had been hanged because they

                had been sentenced to death due to murdering Polish officers

                in KATYN !!!!!!


                ...... "I think what smacks of injustice to so many is this one sided attempt
                to prosecute German veterans of WW2" ........

                Please let's not start this unfruitful shabby exchange of controversial

                arguments again !!!!

                Both sides had committed war crimes on a large scale !

                On " D - DAY " many German soldiers had been shot after surrender

                by paratroopers who claimed that they found their commander

                shot / hit by hundreds of bullets 1

                What a nonsense when one considers heavy defense fire (machine guns etc !!)

                Stalin certainly comes in first but never received full attention

                since he had been a member of the family !!! (uncle Joe !!)

                Comment

                  #53
                  Well-said BL!

                  Blindly adhereing to patriotic myths without opening the mind and thinking critically is just as bad as political correctness. With the same goal......
                  Willi

                  Preußens Gloria!

                  sigpic

                  Sapere aude

                  Comment

                    #54
                    One has to ask the question, for whom was the greater cause....

                    War is hell

                    Nazi Germany had to be stopped, and it was. End of.

                    Back to the main crux of this thread.

                    The main purpose of the arrest of these men is an obvious and cynical attempt to deflect attention away from the real issues facing Germany and Europe at this moment in time.

                    Merkel 's Germany's stance on the Euro and now the migrant crisis will and is slowly and systematically destroying Europe as we know it once again....

                    Comment

                      #55
                      Originally posted by Willi Z. View Post
                      What did Stalin do to any repatriated Red Army POWs? He killed them....

                      Stalin was Hitler's tutor, and his crimes (most of which predate Hitler's) were known by the West long before he was fondly called Uncle Joe by FDR.

                      Anyone ever notice the relationship of when Eisenhower opened the camps along the Rhine as compared to the liberation of Dachau?

                      How many German civilians starved to death after WWI hostilities ended because of the Royal Navy's continued blockade of German ports to intentionally prevent much needed food to come in?
                      No need to bring the senior service into this discussion is there? I was under the impression the focus was on ww2 Nazi war atrocities??
                      The blockade continued until the end of the armistice period, and Germany were asked to provide ships to sail to Allied ports to collect supplies but they refrained thinking the armistice was a temporary measure??..........

                      Comment

                        #56
                        It could also be said the German PWs who killed one another in Rhein-Main camps or the flying courts who hung German soldiers and civilians alike were just as bad as any allied out of context post-war killing.

                        Yeah, Hemingway was a POS. Yes Patton looked the other way. Yes, Eisenhower seemed to be out for retribution. What does any of that have to do with Ascq and 12th SS-HJ? Or this goose chase being conducted?


                        Ascq might as well be Wormhoudt or Oradour-Sur-Glane or Jefremovka. The list is well known and long. But who they choose to prosecute is becoming interesting. Typists, clerks, armorers, etc.

                        The point is Merkel and these Germans prosecuting old men 'before they die' as a stated goal is a distraction. I feel it it is also pointed to send a message to those in Pegida or NPD that what the current rulers view as extremism and NPD/Pegida see as patriotism/Nationalism will be meet with justice. No matter how long that takes.

                        Merkel is part of what is known in Germany as '68-er' referring to those Lehrer/Lehrerin who liberally accepted the Allied foster new education for all Germans. Simply being born German you literally have it drummed into you in their schools that we are all responsible, culpable for the crimes of our elders as Germans. Continuing to prosecute anyone involved is apparantly the new mantra of the German against German.

                        I would love to know what lead to these three pensioners. What 'evidence' sent them there? Where did it originate from? Whose records? Whose files?

                        Comment

                          #57
                          A quintessential piece to have on Ascq should you be fortunate enough to read French. The details of 2./SS-PZ Aufklärungs-Abteilung 12 under SS-Obersturmführer Hauck is key.

                          Members of the unit involved include:
                          SS-Obersturmführer Hauck
                          SS-Untersturmführer Kudocke
                          SS-Oberscharführer Jura
                          SS-Hauptscharführer Buss

                          1./SS-PZ Aufklärungs-Abteilung 12
                          SS-Oberscharführer Zinsmeister
                          SS-Oberscharführer Hauer

                          Stab. SS.AA12
                          SS-Unterscharführer Stun

                          39.45 Magazine No 68
                          Attached Files

                          Comment

                            #58
                            SS-Obersturmführer Walter Hauck 04.06.1918 Freiburg - died 11.06.2006

                            villeneuve-d'asq trial:
                            place: metz
                            dates: 2.8.1949 - 6.8.1949

                            1) walter hauck: the death sentence (commuted to hard-labor for life) -- released after 5 years
                            2) bernhard onken: the death sentence (commuted to 5 years imprisonment)
                            3)werner fuerst: the death sentence (commuted to 5 years imprisonment)
                            4) walter jung: the death sentence (commuted to 5 years imprisonment)
                            5) gunter baensch: the death sentence (commuted to 5 years imprisonment)
                            6) johannes rasmunssen: the death sentence (commuted to 5 years imprisonment)
                            7) august zimmeister: the death sentence (commuted to 5 years imprisonment)
                            8) werner voigt: the death sentence (commuted to 5 years imprisonment)
                            9) fritz wronna: 15 years imprisonment


                            (sources by french journaux)
                            Attached Files

                            Comment

                              #59
                              Further details, they are not just investigating these three men. The Chief Public Prosecutor and criminal investigators are reviewing cases between April 1944 to the end of the war in May 1945 to include the killing of US Paratroopers on German soil.

                              At the same time the two homes in Dresden and one in Hannover were searched the investigators also searched the homes of other former SS members in North Rhine-Westphalia and Baden-Württemberg . Several documents were seized in the hopes this will lead to further investigations.

                              Chief Public Prosecutor Andreas Brendel is also involved in the case against a former Auschwitz guard for accessory to murder in 170,000 cases set for February 11th.

                              Andreas Brendel always responds in two successive arguments . First, from a purely legal . Then follows an addition : " We still have the victims and the relatives of victims. For them it is very important that a German criminal procedure be performed and the guilt of the perpetrators will be found regardless of whether enforcement comes afterwards. Judgment is coming. It is important that the fates of these people be heard before German investigators . "

                              Adreas Brendel holds up photographic evidence of massacres seized.
                              Attached Files

                              Comment

                                #60
                                Interesting

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