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**herkules** · 01-31-2016, 08:16 PM

let's be fair

Gentlemen (?),

how about Ernest Hemmingway !

Hasn't he shot a prisinor of war while interrogating

him in the dunes of Normandy beach ?!

Shooting a prisonor is not realy nice ... is it ??

Keep discussing !!!

Wolf

**Sal Williams** · 02-02-2016, 03:08 AM

Originally posted by JanC View Post

Wow...suspected membership of the 12 SS Pz Div...

Is it a crime to have served in a elite division/ unit? I don't understand why they Always put "nazi" in such articles... Massacres are of all times. Maybe it's only called a crime when Germans did it...

Anyway I don't think it's necessary to prosecute persons who committed things that happened 70 years ago

I think it is safe to say that if you were in the 12 SS Hitlerjugend you were probably a Nazi. You disagree?

**o.r.k.** · 02-02-2016, 04:08 AM

the point is that collecting and being interested in histoty goes hand in hand- you don´t collect old stuff without knowing a lot about the past events. Therefore controversy is quick at hand (I just recently had an ugly one).
In battle triggers are often loose, in hindsight from the armchair we should see things more clearly.
The 12. SS was formed of kids who were raised with Nazi ideology- no doubt about that- there were lots of tit for tat killings going on involving this unit. Unfortunately the German public prosecutors very often lack the knowledge about military structure and rules of war in WW2.
A division is huge and in case of the 12. ss, like many others, the staff was constantly replaced sometimes by its own numbers. So simply to say you were in that unit you did it and we´ll find a photo in your album or a postcard of Asq in your personal belongings is at least dubious.
About war time prosecutions: The German judicial system refers in WW2 related cases to an old (Allied) law that Allied servicemen can´t be prosecuted in Germany for war crimes therefore only Germans are brought to court. If there is initial suspicion for a war crime not commited in the heath of battle it might be another thing- There were quite a few cases prosecuting 90 year old vets. Some years ago they tried to convict a HG vet for alleged revenge shooting of two Russian POWs in Silesia in 1945- they didn´t find anything when raiding his house.

**Jägermarty** · 02-04-2016, 01:25 AM

What a ridiculous waste of everyones time and money.
As if the authorities would find anything worthy of an interview, let aline a conviction. Farken laughable.
And yes, Merkels government should be concentrating on just how they are going to "unfvck" Germany

**Lloyd I.** · 02-04-2016, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by herkules View Post

Gentlemen (?),

how about Ernest Hemmingway !

Hasn't he shot a prisinor of war while interrogating

him in the dunes of Normandy beach ?!

Shooting a prisonor is not realy nice ... is it ??

Keep discussing !!!

Wolf

Wolf,

Yes, Nobel Prize in Literature winner Ernest Hemingway boasted of having killed 122 Germans during the war.

http://www.focus.de/kultur/buecher/b...id_215538.html

""Once I killed a particularly cheeky SS Kraut . When I told him that I would kill him if he did not adjust his surrender signal, the guy said : You will not kill me . Because you are afraid and because you belong to a degenerate bastard race . It also violates the Geneva Convention. You're wrong , brother , I said to him and shot him three times quickly in the stomach , and then when he went to his knees , I shot him in the head , so that his brain came from his mouth , or from the nose I think. " Hemingway wrote on August 27, 1949, to his publisher Charles Scribner.

On June 2, 1950 Hemingway told Arthur Mizener that he had killed 122 Germans. One of his last victims was a young soldier fleeing on a bicycle - " about the age of my son Patrick ." He had shot him with an M1 from the rear through the backbone . The bullet tore through the liver.

Hemingway was a drunk and a bully given too much authority by his American commander. He was a war correspondent but was made the unofficial governor of a French village by OSS Colonel David Bruce because Hemingway spoke fluent French. Hemingway even removed his War correspondent patch from his uniform, interrogated German prisoners (and killed some of them), and went on scouting patrols looking for enemy positions.

Hardly equates though to the massacre of 89 French civilians in retaliation for the bombing of a German troop transport train. It is an illustration of the excesses committed by Americans during the war in Europe. No one will rescind his Nobel Prize however. There wont be an inquiry.

**herkules** · 02-04-2016, 03:34 PM

killing of POWs

Quoting General Patton / 'War as I knew it' / page 282 :

" We rounded them up next day with 71st InfDiv / 10th InfRgt (Col R.P.Bell)

Recce Btl (LTC M.W.Frame) .....

In all some eight hundred prisoners were taken and probably five hundred

killed, as the soldiers were still under the impression that atrocities had been

committed" ...

... "in no way they (Germans) molested the doctors , nurses ,

or enlisted personnel of the hospital " .....

Is there anyone out there to confirm that this magnificent General had been

a lier or that there had been an investigation authorized/initiated ?

Please help !

Wolf

**Lloyd I.** · 02-04-2016, 05:03 PM

Yes, Patton was aware of war crimes but did nothing about them. In one case throwing the statements into the trash.

The discussion is regarding these men and the investigation being conducted on them simply because they were in the 12th SS-HJ and are possible 'witness' to a crime. How they are implicated is not fully explained just that their homes were searched for incriminating evidence and documents were removed showing they were in the 12th SS-HJ. As I stated Membership in the 12th SS-HJ is not a justification and the lead German investigator at least seems to be taking a measured approach.

I was honestly not even aware that there were war crimes units in Germany maintained by the Germans! My assumption was that legally this passed through the German courts and that municipalities had no branches dedicated to this sort of thing.

I think what smacks of injustice to so many is this one sided attempt to prosecute German veterans of WW2, a last ditch effort before they die as has been stated by investigators. I dont know of a single Allied veteran who has been returned to Germany to face charges of killing prisoners of war or civilians in WW2 although there are documented cases that even mention the names of those involved. In some cases German newspapers from 1945 record these various killings.

**TP Alexander** · 02-04-2016, 05:28 PM

Maybe this is why he committed suicide later on in life. Maybe his conscience finally caught up with him. I never have understood why he took his own life. This might be a possible explanation.

Originally posted by Lloyd I. View Post

Wolf,

Yes, Nobel Prize in Literature winner Ernest Hemingway boasted of having killed 122 Germans during the war.

http://www.focus.de/kultur/buecher/b...id_215538.html

""Once I killed a particularly cheeky SS Kraut . When I told him that I would kill him if he did not adjust his surrender signal, the guy said : You will not kill me . Because you are afraid and because you belong to a degenerate bastard race . It also violates the Geneva Convention. You're wrong , brother , I said to him and shot him three times quickly in the stomach , and then when he went to his knees , I shot him in the head , so that his brain came from his mouth , or from the nose I think. " Hemingway wrote on August 27, 1949, to his publisher Charles Scribner.

On June 2, 1950 Hemingway told Arthur Mizener that he had killed 122 Germans. One of his last victims was a young soldier fleeing on a bicycle - " about the age of my son Patrick ." He had shot him with an M1 from the rear through the backbone . The bullet tore through the liver.

Hemingway was a drunk and a bully given too much authority by his American commander. He was a war correspondent but was made the unofficial governor of a French village by OSS Colonel David Bruce because Hemingway spoke fluent French. Hemingway even removed his War correspondent patch from his uniform, interrogated German prisoners (and killed some of them), and went on scouting patrols looking for enemy positions.

Hardly equates though to the massacre of 89 French civilians in retaliation for the bombing of a German troop transport train. It is an illustration of the excesses committed by Americans during the war in Europe. No one will rescind his Nobel Prize however. There wont be an inquiry.

**JanC** · 02-04-2016, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by Lloyd I. View Post

Yes, Patton was aware of war crimes but did nothing about them. In one case throwing the statements into the trash.

The discussion is regarding these men and the investigation being conducted on them simply because they were in the 12th SS-HJ and are possible 'witness' to a crime. How they are implicated is not fully explained just that their homes were searched for incriminating evidence and documents were removed showing they were in the 12th SS-HJ. As I stated Membership in the 12th SS-HJ is not a justification and the lead German investigator at least seems to be taking a measured approach.

I was honestly not even aware that there were war crimes units in Germany maintained by the Germans! My assumption was that legally this passed through the German courts and that municipalities had no branches dedicated to this sort of thing.

I think what smacks of injustice to so many is this one sided attempt to prosecute German veterans of WW2, a last ditch effort before they die as has been stated by investigators. I dont know of a single Allied veteran who has been returned to Germany to face charges of killing prisoners of war or civilians in WW2 although there are documented cases that even mention the names of those involved. In some cases German newspapers from 1945 record these various killings.

I remember bastard Eisenhower saying: Let's kill every single German...

In 1945 there were several prisoner camps in Germany. Thousands POW were killed or were just being neglected they would die of starvation. Those POW were exposed to all weather conditions (heath, direct sun, rain, snow, wind...). All their military belongings were taken away (half shelter, overcoat,...).
Drunk GI (mostly services personnel that did not see combat) shot Germans for no reason. Just to kill some so they could tell later great war stories...

**Totenhead** · 02-04-2016, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by TP Alexander View Post

Maybe this is why he committed suicide later on in life. Maybe his conscience finally caught up with him. I never have understood why he took his own life. This might be a possible explanation.

I do not think so, he was known to have hereditary psychological issues

**Totenhead** · 02-04-2016, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by JanC View Post

I remember bastard Eisenhower saying: Let's kill every single German...

In 1945 there were several prisoner camps in Germany. Thousands POW were killed or were just being neglected they would die of starvation. Those POW were exposed to all weather conditions (heath, direct sun, rain, snow, wind...). All their military belongings were taken away (half shelter, overcoat,...).
Drunk GI (mostly services personnel that did not see combat) shot Germans for no reason. Just to kill some so they could tell later great war stories...

**TP Alexander** · 02-04-2016, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Totenhead View Post

I do not think so, he was known to have hereditary psychological issues

That kinda' fills in the reason how he could shoot someone in the back and feel no remorse.

**Totenhead** · 02-04-2016, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by TP Alexander View Post

That kinda' fills in the reason how he could shoot someone in the back and feel no remorse.

Were there not many German's who did that during the 2nd World War, or shot people through the head to be more exact ?

You mention German POWs starving in camps in 1945, who do you feel should be held responsible for the hundreds of thousands of Soviet POW's who died at the hands of the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front ?

Do you feel Heinrich Himmler was feeling remorse when he took his own life ? ....

**Totenhead** · 02-04-2016, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by Jägermarty View Post

What a ridiculous waste of everyones time and money.
As if the authorities would find anything worthy of an interview, let aline a conviction. Farken laughable.
And yes, Merkels government should be concentrating on just how they are going to "unfvck" Germany

Merkel and Germany are slowly and systematically destroying Europe as we know it once again....

**TP Alexander** · 02-04-2016, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by Totenhead View Post

Were there not many German's who did that during the 2nd World War, or shot people through the head to be more exact ?

You mention German POWs starving in camps in 1945, who do you feel should be held responsible for the hundreds of thousands of Soviet POW's who died at the hands of the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front ?

Do you feel Heinrich Himmler was feeling remorse when he took his own life ? ....

I think you hit the wrong 'quote' button, because I said nothing about Soviet POWs. As far as Himmler is concerned, I think he took poison because he was a coward and didn't want to face the music. I think that if you were correct about Hemingway's hereditary psychological issues, I was speculating about how A), he might have finally figured out that he was wrong for shooting men in the back and B)he may have felt at the time that what he was doing was alright, although he didn't even have the excuse of being a soldier in the service of his country...although I can't think of any circumstance where a guy that is running away and presents his back to you can be a legitimate target.
That's all I got to say on the subject.

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