Safe the FJ-memorial at crete - sign now online

[birdie]

Thank you

If I took your comment out of context, I made a mistake and owe you an apology. Reading that post of yours appeared really one sided to me and as you said, apologist. Since we do unfortunately have some people of this bunch on board, I may have been too quick to judge you, but I think that such comments shouldn't be tolerated and that an immediate reaction is needed, if we don't want to become these peoples' playground.

Once more, please accept my sincere apologies. I wish I got an answer like yours, proving me wrong, each time I accused someone as an apologist.

Best regards,
Giorgos

Thank you sir, apology accepted!

Interesting topic.....briefly, again my main point is as outsiders, I feel we have little to say about what people of other countries decided regarding the fate of monuments erected by people they were at war with. I used the Berlin monuments as an example, my good friends Grandmother was raped by Russian troops in front of his mother when she was a little girl.

War stinks and the legacy of suffering lives on.

Thanks for the insight into the Paratroopers reprisals, that was very sad.

[siton12]

No way ever was I comparing the paratroopers to the looters, rapists, and murderers in Berlin.

+1000

[Totenhead]

None of us was there, but I can well imagine the feelings of young paras (kids as called in another post) when they found their comrades not only killed (this they had to expect) but murdered, slaugthered, tortured.
And then they got an order by an offc. telling them "we got those who did this" - of course most of the paras had no problem to take part at the execution.

The paras did not invade crete to fight the cretes, but the brits who were fleeing mainland greece, and made the bad decission not to go back all the way to egypt. BTW; why its ok for you that this foreign army comes to your land, but another not?
And then the brirts used the crete people as an additional weapon to fight the germans, telling stories, giving instructions, and so on. But nobody today blames the brits for their part of the story...

The execution took place not because the germans are evil from the start, but as an answer to actions done by civilians. Covered by the genevan land warfare rules.

Of course not all of the executors were guilty - only all germans are.



But this thread was started to help to safe a piece of histopry, not to start those endless duscussions agian, which will only leed to hot blood and the close of this important thread. If you wanna continue to discuss this, please at a new thread.

We all know better now what this memorial means today.

So it was all our fault was it ?? ( Brits ) tut tut

The memorial should be preserved as it is now part of the Islands history, but ultimately the decision should come down to the people themselves I feel

[Totenhead]

I think any invaded country should decide the fate of monuments erected by it's occupiers...Comparing this one to ancient monuments is unfair. I for one am sickened by Soviet monuments in Berlin, a city they raped and murdered in at will. Do I think it would be cool to go see this monument and absorb the history behind it? Sure, but that's my own selfish reason. It's up to the Greeks.

I agree with you somewhat, I feel it is the decision of the Islanders and the Greek government.
One question I do have, why should the Soviets not have a memorial in Berlin, a lot of Soviet soldiers fell taking the city, not all, I assume were rapists and murderers, the same could be said for the SS and Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front

[birdie]

answer...

I agree with you somewhat, I feel it is the decision of the Islanders and the Greek government.
One question I do have, why should the Soviets not have a memorial in Berlin, a lot of Soviet soldiers fell taking the city, not all, I assume were rapists and murderers, the same could be said for the SS and Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front

because it's not their country... If Russian I'd feel insulted at Nazi memorials in my country, just like I would if a Berliner, looking at artifacts that remind me of the death of so many of my countrymen.

[Totenhead]

because it's not their country... If Russian I'd feel insulted at Nazi memorials in my country, just like I would if a Berliner, looking at artifacts that remind me of the death of so many of my countrymen.

So from that point of view then, the memorial in Crete should be removed. How do you think Cretan's feel ???

Its a difficult one this, as a Brit, GB was never invaded, although the Channel Islands were occupied for 5 years. I still think its down to the Cretans and Greece to decide, who are we to tell them what to do ??.....

[birdie]

again...

So from that point of view then, the memorial in Crete should be removed. How do you think Cretan's feel ???

Its a difficult one this, as a Brit, GB was never invaded, although the Channel Islands were occupied for 5 years. I still think its down to the Cretans and Greece to decide, who are we to tell them what to do ??.....

Again, my point of view is mine, I strongly believe it's up to the Country where the memorials are. I do not believe it is my right to tell Germany, Crete, Russia or anyone they have to keep memorials erected by countries they fought, so we as military history fans can enjoy them. Thats my point, my personal view. having said that, I'd love to visit it and enjoy the history behind it.

[siton12]

That's true. Does that mean that an armed force is entitled to execute tens of people like that? Did all of them take part in the killing of the Paras? No, they just had the guns and the numbers to do it, it's as simple as that, moral issues aside.

And yes, if an enemy lands on your roof, are you going to just sit there and watch him? Are you not going to defend your home?

I 'm just saying that terror is another weapon in the arsenal. Whoever doesn't see that, is just ignoring the nature of war itself.

Best regards,
Giorgos

Giorgos
You are completely off topic and,most important-wrong in your thesis.
When an enemy of your country,lands in your roof and you are in uniform,you have to fight back.This applies also if you re not in uniform but registered member of a certain Militia.In the latter,according to the Just of War,you must bare your arms openly-that means the enemy sees you armed,and wear some distinguished part of cloth or something that seperates you from unarmed civilians.
If,for any reason you are neither,you shouldn't do anything aggressive against the invading enemy or you and perhaps your family faces possible execution.
Been a former Greek Paratrooper myself I can also guarantie that these laws apply still nowadays.In Crete,unregistered and hard to judge so called civilians,took part in the action hiting german paras from behind and moreover they were torturing them.There are proofs of wounded paras were decapitated,eyes torn out among other brutalities that I feel sick to write...
ΕΙΝΑΙ ΤΟ ΕΙΔΕΧΘΕΣ του εγκλήματος!It is the Hideus on the crime,not the crime itself!
After all,why had this to be either you sit on your porch and watch them invade your country,or you grab a couple from them,wounded,and torture them?Why?
When will we get to learn?Greeks I mean?Why so Pathos for the Extreme...
Notis

[herrzark]

its DNA i can say.This pathos helped our country to be free now (maybe and with other advantage ). But i dont agree with tortuing someone , turn out his eyes e.t.c. Dont like it

[siton12]

None of us was there, but I can well imagine the feelings of young paras (kids as called in another post) when they found their comrades not only killed (this they had to expect) but murdered, slaugthered, tortured.
And then they got an order by an offc. telling them "we got those who did this" - of course most of the paras had no problem to take part at the execution.

The paras did not invade crete to fight the cretes, but the brits who were fleeing mainland greece, and made the bad decission not to go back all the way to egypt. BTW; why its ok for you that this foreign army comes to your land, but another not?
And then the brirts used the crete people as an additional weapon to fight the germans, telling stories, giving instructions, and so on. But nobody today blames the brits for their part of the story...

The execution took place not because the germans are evil from the start, but as an answer to actions done by civilians. Covered by the genevan land warfare rules.

Of course not all of the executors were guilty - only all germans are.



But this thread was started to help to safe a piece of histopry, not to start those endless duscussions agian, which will only leed to hot blood and the close of this important thread. If you wanna continue to discuss this, please at a new thread.

We all know better now what this memorial means today.

crystal clearl right.I agree completely on this.
Notis

[siton12]

So it was all our fault was it ?? ( Brits ) tut tut

The memorial should be preserved as it is now part of the Islands history, but ultimately the decision should come down to the people themselves I feel

As far as Greek non existing policy,British Machiavellian political Entaglements,Naval food shipments blockade to a starving Athenian population resulting more of 100.000 dead,supplying Communist Guerillas of EAM/ELAS knowing by liaison officers that those supplies will end up in the wrong hands and finally shall be used to seize power,when Germans retreat,or even worse,use this wrong hands theory as an alibi to meddle in,yes.Quite right.
Actually,you did more harm to us Greeks than Germans.
Notis

[siton12]

its DNA i can say.This pathos helped our country to be free now (maybe and with other advantage ). But i dont agree with tortuing someone , turn out his eyes e.t.c. Dont like it

yes,me too but,it happened.About Pathos(passion)yes ok,but there is a flip side to that coin...that goes the other way around.And is not right.Makes us Greeks to forget Navarino in 1827.Pathos, was the ignition of the civil war 1822-1826,which lead to disaster.Hadn't been the Allies to beat the s*it out of the Egyptians we would be still under ottomans...
Do you know that even Americans Greek Friends or Philhellenes helped us out then?And "evil" Germans too?

[Totenhead]

as far as greek non existing policy,british machiavellian political entaglements,naval food shipments blockade to a starving athenian population resulting more of 100.000 dead,supplying communist guerillas of eam/elas knowing by liaison officers that those supplies will end up in the wrong hands and finally shall be used to seize power,when germans retreat,or even worse,use this wrong hands theory as an alibi to meddle in,yes.quite right.
Actually,you did more harm to us greeks than germans.
Notis

wtf !!

You know what ?? I will be in Normandy in a months time, perhaps we should not have bothered. You whining f****s in Europe make me puke

EDIT: Was going to edit it but changed my mind

[siton12]

wtf !!

You know what ?? I will be in Normandy in a months time, perhaps we should not have bothered. You whining f****s in Europe make me puke

EDIT: Was going to edit it but changed my mind

Go ahead!Watch your stockings...

[Totenhead]

Go ahead!Watch your stockings...

I am serious. I will be standing there, looking out towards the Channel. Was it worth it, what have we gained in all these years. The French, the Germans, and now, you the Greeks, laugh at us, mock us.
I will think of all those poor souls who never left those beaches, and also inland in the Bocage's. Kalimera