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German Veterans Abroad on November 11th

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    German Veterans Abroad on November 11th

    November 11th, known as Remembrance Day here in Canada, has now once again come and gone. Many of us around the world have paid due respect to fallen servicemen and those still surviving. Proper thing.

    An article entitled, 'Just young kids fighting for our country', which appeared in a local newspaper here in Ottawa, Canada, started me thinking and prompts me to write this posting for discussion.

    The article states that "Remembrance Day means little for Canada's other veterans, the Germans who came here after the Second World War....German veterans remember valour and sacrifice in their own way, on their own time."

    Several of these German veterans living in Canada were interviewed, and I will paraphrase and quote herein their comments, which include the fact that they, too, fought bravely for their country and watched many of their friends fall on the battlefield. Yet unlike the thousands of former soldiers who were honoured on November 11th, they "...stayed home with (their own) private memories of the war - aging symbols of a vanquished enemy."

    It is stated that, for them, Remembrance Day has never been a moment of pride or public commemoration and that, excluded from the Remembrance Day events - and with few memorials to honour their own wartime experience - they simply put the past behind them. "Let the Canadian veterans do what they want. I can remember my own sacrifices, I don't need anyone to make a big fuss about it."

    Those interviewed commented that: "...they've never felt any hostility from Canadians for their role in the German war machine...(and that they) carry no anger or bitterness towards the Allied soldiers who defeated their homeland....(and further that they, when POWs) never considered them...enemies."

    Said one: "On the contrary, I have many acquaintances with American and Canadian soldiers who were in the war. We were never political. We always knew they did the same job for their country, as we did for ours."

    "Despite these sentiments, Remembrance Day still brings with it an annual dose of mixed emotion..." as Canadians publicly honour wartime sacrifices and remember heroes...while most German veterans keep their memories to themselves."

    Said another: "It would be nice if we were invited to these ceremonies, but by no means do I feel left out. I know what I have gone through and what I have done for my country. I have my pride, that's all that matters."

    In some areas, small groups of German war veterans do get together in private each year to remember their friends lost in the war. "Kitchener, Ontario, is one of the few places where German veterans publicly commemorate their war....old soldiers from Kitchener's large German-Canadian community gather with members of the Royal Canadian Legion, to lay wreaths on German war graves, many of them PoWs who died while imprisoned at camps in Canada."

    The German veterans interviewed felt that they are widely misunderstood and that the general populace does not understand much about the German war experience...."While most were ordinary conscripts, many are wrongly viewed as Nazis"...(whereas)..."Most of us were just like the Canadian soldiers - young kids fighting for our country" and that "...Canadian troops came home from the war to a prosperous country, German soldiers returned to find bombed-out cities, scattered families, and a broken nation....Yes, Germany was the aggressor, but the Canadian wartime experience wasn't the same as Germany's. German soldiers lived through something quite different."

    Still he says, "Canada was one of the victors. They should remember their victory."

    Are members aware of instances out there where German war veterans are involved in the annual Remembrance or Veterans Day ceremonies?

    Do members feel strongly one way or another as to the recognition and involvement of German war veterans in an appropriate way at such annual ceremonies?

    Thanks for reading this and for any comments,

    John

    #2
    Sorry, can't forgive and forget because I don't have the right, I wasn't there. So long as one Canadian Veteran at the memorial objects to their being there, then you have your answer. Perhaps that Veteran had a close friend who died fighting the Germans, and if that's the case, he's totally justified in not wanting to have them there. it's his right. And on a side note-the only time the Germans were fighting for their country was when they were beaten back into Germany after trying to steal someone else's country.
    Last edited by 22B; 11-13-2004, 07:22 PM.

    Comment


      #3
      War is a terrible thing.. no matter what side they were fighting for.. they were still someones son, father or brother who didnt return

      and to quote " And on a side note-the only time the Germans were fighting for their country was when they were beaten back into Germany after trying to steal someone else's country."

      statements like that make me wonder why you are here? are you a collector of a thiefs items?.

      Comment


        #4
        We are here because the true collectors have provided a substantial amount of correct technical information that has helped identify the large amount of German militaria that we have in the archives. We want to ensure that everything is correctly labeled and all relevent data is on file for future staff. None of this material will be displayed in the gallery. This is the policy of the current staff. They aren't hiding anything, they just feel that the gallery honours those who fought against evil. and the perpetrators of such events hold no place of honour. If your a true collector, you'll live with it. If your a revisionist, you'll be angry. Tough. Don't care.

        Comment


          #5
          "and the perpetrators of such events hold no place of honour. If your a true collector, you'll live with it. If your a revisionist, you'll be angry. Tough. Don't care."
          B22, why do you continue to antagonise forum members? With such comments as yours, it is clearly evident that you are a man full of hatred and anger. Please, lets try to focus on the policies of this forum. I am sometimes amazed at the perpetuation of hate against the Germans and the seething self-righteousness. You seem to be a very unforgiving human being. I am very shocked and also very sorry that you feel that way. The war has been over for 59 years. These soldiers who suffered so much sacrificed everything. If you have read the comments they made, they say that they have no animosity towards their former enemies and that the Canadian soldiers should have their commemorations. This is coming from soldiers who fought and had their comrades killed by the Canadians. Maybe you should learn a lesson from these men who actually fought agains their once enemies? Unlike you, who have not?
          Please don't perpetuate the hate, its an evil thing and can lead to horrible consequences as we know from the war.

          Comment


            #6
            To me this situation is simple they fought for the wrong side and for the wrong cause therefore they should not be honored along with the allied veterans. I think that even suggesting such a thing is wrong.

            I understand that they were not all nazis but they fought for their cause. Their side committed atrocities on a scale never seen before in human history.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Billy B
              Their side committed atrocities on a scale never seen before in human history.
              Everybody knows that the mid-20th century Germans systematically tortured and killed millions of ordinary, innocent and defenceless men, women, children, toddlers and babies. Everybody knows that they shot, starved and gassed millions of innocents in scenes from hell. Everybody knows that they systematically slaughtered an estimated 6-8 million European Jewry for no reason.

              but what of the russians or the chinese

              Lenin killed 4 million people - men, women and little children. He is the 5th greatest murderer of the 20th century (after Stalin, Mao, Hitler and Chiang Kai-shek

              Stalin killed 42 million people - men, women and little children. In all of history, only Mao could possibly have killed more.

              Communist China has killed between 35 million and 65 million innocent humans so far, yes thats to date!

              IM sorry if i hijacked this thread, I truly belive the german soldaten fought with as much honour and guts as an american, canadian and european allie soldier. They all died for a cause be it good or bad.

              Comment


                #8
                John,
                Firstly I have had close family that have died in both WW's, and until I read your thread had not given it much consideration before. Should they shouldn't they is a very big question.

                I don't see why they should not be able to pay respecta to their fallen friends and commrades, however, I could see that this might cause an issue in some area's. Even if people couldn't mix they could hold their own, but you can imagine the news coverage on that one.

                Just to more points, in Bristol {England} this year there was a repesentation from the German twin city at this years service, which I think is good. For those of you who don't know, besides all of the locals that gave their ultimate, Bristol was bombed to buggery in WWII

                Fianlly, taking up on one of the points earlier, following the rule that the losers can not mourn their dead, does that mean all those who died in Vietnam can not be remembered??? I think not, but by placing the same principle on this conflict you would say no!!!
                Regards
                Si

                SWS Collection 01-14 Images Copyright.

                Comment


                  #9
                  "I understand that they were not all nazis but they fought for their cause. Their side committed atrocities on a scale never seen before in human history."

                  I disagree. Let's not conveniently forget how the American Indians were genocided, murdered, raped, their land and livelihood pillaged and a whole world completely and utterly destroyed. About 99% of a people completely wiped out! How is this so conveniently forgotten and dismissed? The fact that it is dismissed and forgotten makes it even worse. As if it didn't matter... I cannot fathom the mentaility of those who judge others but do not acknowledge their own worse faults. It is dangerous!
                  Is it any wonder that a country can willfully invade and kill off the social existence of a weaker country these days and get away with it with a self deluded conscience?
                  This self righteousness, wherin the evil doer hides behind his back a bloody knife, yet judges others, this sort of evil self-righteousness, this arrogant hypocrisy and racism, this is THE most dangerous evil I have ever had the utmost displeasure of hearing again and again.
                  How can you judge the Germans, when you yourself have committed and continue commiting evil on top of pure evil?!
                  What is the difference between Berlin 1933 and a country that follows suit today?
                  Well the answer is arrogance, an unhealthy dose of self deluded, self rightous hypocrisy, unstoppable evil and a monopoly on overwhelming weapons of mass detructions. Everyone who is against this is immdediately and automatically branded evil.
                  Last edited by TWP; 11-14-2004, 11:33 PM.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by 22B
                    And on a side note-the only time the Germans were fighting for their country was when they were beaten back into Germany after trying to steal someone else's country.
                    So, the only time someone can be fighting for their country is when they're defending it on their own soil? Interesing in that, according to your logic, most of the Canadians who died overseas in WWII weren't fighting for their country.

                    What about those Allied soldiers that died when they were beating the Germans back into Germany? As evil as Hitler & Co. might of been, Germany was a sovereign nation, and the Allies were successful in "stealing" that country.

                    There are two sides to every story, and it's never as simple as the propagandists would lead you to believe.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      The vast majority of cases I know of, the veterans from both sides get along fine and with no problems.
                      They show each other the respect they all deserve.I have seen friendships devellop between ex-enemies and you can feel they are connected to each other.
                      War was fought in the front lines where there was no room for theory and political thinking. All of them did what they had to do to survive another day, nothing more and nothing less.
                      They understand that, it is strange we have to argue about something like this on their behalf.
                      I think it the generations after the war that were/are too fast to put labels on people.

                      All the best
                      Yannis

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Volkstrauertag

                        A very relevant article on the AP newswire. Personally, I agree with LCol. Sladek. Comments?

                        Mike

                        FORT BENNING, Ga. (AP) - They are foreign enemies buried thousands of miles from home, but they are not forgotten. Less than a week after U.S. soldiers were honored during Veterans Day, dignitaries on Wednesday are to gather and salute the hundreds of thousands of German prisoners of war taken to camps in the United States during World War II - most of them in the South.

                        "The minimum you can do is honor these soldiers who sacrificed," said Lt. Col. Herbert R. Sladek, a member of Fort Benning's German Army liaison team, which hosts "Volkstrauertag" - Germany's day of mourning.

                        "They were educated in another time period, with another political guideline. In their opinion, they also fought for freedom, liberty and for their fatherland. That's why these people gave all they had - their own lives."

                        The camps are an all-but-forgotten part of history, but the prisoners did leave some remnants behind in southern Georgia and throughout the country. Some of them went on to become leaders of postwar Germany.

                        During World War II, the United States, which had little previous experience with foreign POWs, hastily threw up 700 internment camps to detain 425,000 enemy soldiers, who were arriving sometimes at a rate of 30,000 a month.

                        The German internees are still remembered for their skills and hard work. With most of America's young men overseas, the POWs helped overcome a labor shortage by harvesting crops and doing other physical labor for 80 cents a day.

                        "Volkstrauertag," held in Germany on the third Sunday of November, started after World War I as Germans struggled to come to terms with the loss of 5 million countrymen.

                        On Wednesday, the ceremony at Fort Benning cemetery is expected to honor 44 German soldiers, including a highly decorated general. U.S. Army musicians will play the German equivalent of taps.

                        Among the invited guests are the German consul general in Atlanta and Fort Benning's commander, Brig. Gen. Benjamin C. Freakley. Others include members of Rolling Thunder, a motorcycle club that focuses on POW-MIA issues and "Klub Heimatland," a German women's group that tends the graves.

                        "They are German soldiers and we feel like we want to pay our respects to them," said Inge Wills, the club's president. "It means something for us to do this for the families who cannot do it."

                        About 860 of the German POWs are buried at 43 sites across the United States, according to the German War Graves Commission, a private charity based in Germany that registers, maintains and cares for the graves of the country's war dead abroad. They died from illnesses, accidents and other causes.

                        The largest number, 108, are buried at the National Cemetery in Chattanooga, Tenn., which also has the graves of 78 World War I German POWs. Other major burial sites are Fort Sam Houston, Texas, with 133, Fort Riley, Kan., with 63 and Fort Reno, Okla., with 62, including the grave of a POW who was murdered by six fellow prisoners. They were executed.

                        Georgia had 40 camps with 11,800 prisoners at places like Fort Benning and what is now Fort Stewart near Savannah and Moody Air Force Base, near Valdosta. There were many smaller camps in rural areas such as Fargo, on the edge of the Okefenokee Swamp.

                        Lt. Gen. Willibald Borowietz, who was killed in an auto accident on July 1, 1945, is the highest-ranking POW buried at Fort Benning. According to his headstone, he received the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves - the equivalent of the U.S. Medal of Honor.

                        "German POWs were treated very well," said Arnold Krammer, a Texas A&M history professor who has written several books on German POWs. "In some cases they were given wine and beer with every meal. Of course, prison is still prison. They were bored and unhappy."

                        But thousands returned to Germany fluent in English and "having a new love and respect for the United States," Krammer said. Many climbed into the hierarchy of the postwar government, while others became business executives, writers and artists, he said.

                        U.S. farmers paid the government for the POWs' work and the government then paid the POWs.

                        "Each prisoner could take back several hundred dollars or more, which helped lubricate the German economy," Krammer said. "It was one of those programs that just worked out well for everybody."

                        On the Net:

                        German Prisoners of World War II: http://www.kriegsgefangen.de

                        German POWs in the South: http://www.germanpow.com
                        Last edited by MJC; 11-15-2004, 10:05 AM.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Mike,

                          Thanks for psoting this, it also answered a question that I had in the back of my head, was, do the Germans have the same day to pay their respects and its seems it is a different day.

                          Once again a good item, which I think sums it all up.

                          Cheers
                          Regards
                          Si

                          SWS Collection 01-14 Images Copyright.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Mike, I sent you a couple of PM and wondered if you received them?
                            Thanks

                            TWP

                            Comment


                              #15
                              German POWs buried in USA to be honored Wednesday

                              Just found this article in USA Today http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...-honored_x.htm

                              then noticed it was already posted above.

                              Comment

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