Craig Gottlieb & "Nazi War Diggers"

[Simon O.]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ar-graves.html

That's great. I don't know if they knew of it already but i tipped off the center for battlefield archaeology about this a couple of days ago. I'm glad Tony Pollard has weighed in on this, for those who dont know he is perhaps the best known archaeologist in britain who specialises in battlefield archaeology and has been a leading light in developing it as an accepted subdiscipline within the field.

[Seigfried]

I agree. Of course the whole point is not what's happening but who's doing it.

I see, so you condone this sort of behaviour? You are not bothered about what is happening but think that there is only a furore because it is CG.

This type of 'digging' is a disgrace whoever is doing it and I am disappointed if you cannot see that.

You appear to have some 'previous' when it comes to defending CG, you should maybe consider what side of the fence you are on. If you desire to be ridiculed and held in contempt as he is then carry on.

[Jean-Loup]

"I understand that, but again playing the other side believe it goes even deeper than that......Seeing something ugly in CG causes others to see something in themselves that they don't like.....Bodes"

I agree that a lot of the comments here and elsewhere have been based on assumptions about what happened to the body that the team dug up, and what happened to the items found with the body. I personaly think this body was brought to a cemetery, and I dont think any items found with it were sold, so like I said before, I dont think what they are doing is grave robbing.

(1) The fact remains however that these people are posing as and claiming to be doing archeological work, and are setting an exemple to others. In fact they clearly have no training in archaeology, or even any understanding of its most basic principles. They are therefore frauds, and damaging the reputation of real archaeologists.
(2) Furthermore, it is the manner in which they, and in particular Craig, handle these bones, and all the obvious theatrics they have set up, that are nauseating. They are using a dead soldier as a prop for their mediocre so called reality TV; not exhuming him in a dignified and correct manner. Think of how manny levels Craigs quote is wrong on: "I think that by selling things tht are nazi related and for lots of money, I am preserving a part of our history that museums dont want to bother with". Do you want to hear words like that from the mouth of an archaeologist, or of a person exhuming german bodies? That he said something like that is already shocking, that NG used that as their introduction on their website is beyong comprehension!

Those two points are the problem. Much of what else has been written are unfounded acusations, many of which show little understanding of the reality of how war graves are handled on a daily basis by authorized organizations on the former eastern front. I also feel that many of the comments by archaeologists are out of place, as to my knowleadge, archaeologists have virtualy never been involved in any WWII work on the eastern front. However, archaeologists are forced to reply to this show, as the people in it are making the claim of doing archaeological work.

On an other note, based on the photo below, I get the impression that this body may have been a body pilfered in the past and reburied by grave robbers (secondary burial), and CG and his mates were just digging him up a second time. Indeed, all the bones seem to be mixed up randomly, and parts that should be connected anatomicaly are no longer so. That would explain why the femur was up beside the head, and why the fractured pieces of skull are not close to the rest of the skull.
This is just an observation, impossible to confirm without better pictures, and probably impossible to confirm because of the way they exhumed the bones.

[Simon O.]

Very good observation JL, it would have been quite obvious by the condition of the soil and how/where any artifacts were in relation to each other if this was relatively recent reburial or an undisturbed burial. I know that in some remote locations bodies were left unburied. This was the case for many men of SS-skijäger btl. Norwegen at kaprolat-hasselmann in north russia who were recovered a few years ago. It could be the remains were only hastily buried some years after the war, but again, all this would have been quite obvious during the excavation...if you know what you are doing.

[Jo Rivett]

National Geographic Nazi War Diggers - Leichenfledderei im Dienst des Kommerz

Post title and quote from: http://archaeologik.blogspot.ch/2014...r-diggers.html

Craig Gottlieb, einer der Nazi War Diggers ist ein berüchtigter Händler von Militaria und 'NS-Memorabilien' (siehe englische wikipedia [Version 27.3.2014]: Google führt im Internet gleich zu mehreren Plattformen ('History Hunter', Craig Gottlieb Military Auctions, Craig Gottlieb Militaria) auf denen Funde vertickt werden. NG behauptet, die drei "war diggers" befänden sich im Wettlauf gegen die Zeit, um die Geschichte vor Plünderung und Verlust zu retten. Tatsächlich sind sie offenbar selbst die Plünderer.

[Robert H]

Post title and quote from: http://archaeologik.blogspot.ch/2014...r-diggers.html

Danke fuer den Link

[kefru177]

Post title and quote from: http://archaeologik.blogspot.ch/2014...r-diggers.html

I guess Gottleib wont be taking a holiday in Germany this year

[Jo Rivett]

At least he is showing great respect for these items making candlesticks out of them!

I missed this reply, yes, agree 100%.
Quote from Craig Gottlieb

I also brought back two Russian mortar tails, and will be turning them into a pair of candlesticks. I will probably go for the "ultra modern" look and have them cleaned and plated

Thats the "race to preserve" relics i guess. To be fair though, "preserve" could mean anything, even turning the spoils into candlesticks, the main point IS, to be first in that race, to be the first to make the candlestick-conversion.

[Dietrich Maerz]

The hunters and their prey. A nice smile after a days work and a perfect presentation of a "Nazi". How deep can one sink to pose for such a picture?
He really might be in trouble in Kassel/Germany when some of the "more-right leaning" attendants get a hold of the story. They will beat him up badly!

[DBRoyal]

Just to make clear, there is an archeological purpose and a historical need to investigate and discover recent battlefields of the Great War and the Second World War. But it needs to be done with dignity and not like three grave diggers who pretend to be moved in front of the camera. I guess they are not in the business of finding something out, but just rather finding marketeable items, just like all the other "diggers" on TV. Pure commercial enterprise and very common east of the Vistula...

The thought that a Russian or German soldier has been taken from his solderly grave like this is just beyond comprehension. Even more disgusting is the fact that somebody proposed this "series" and the NG is entertaining it. What happens with the bones? Throw them back in the hole and kick back the dirt when the camera is off? Modern grave robbery in the tradition of Dr. Frankenstein!

Refreshing to see this series: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finding_the_Fallen. Made by professionals in a professional way and without the "drama" and the self-promotion!

Dietrich

PS: If my father or grandfather would have fallen in that area, I would not know what I would do right now!!!

Some people/cultures believe this kind of activity brings bad karma to those who engage in it. It is wrong to disturb or rob the graves of any soldiers just as it was/is wrong to dig in death camps and mass gravesites in search of valuables after the war, or to remove tombstones from some cemeteries and put them to other uses. Scholars engaged in study would not do it this way nor would they take pictures like we see here. I wonder where those who buy "ground dug" items think they come from?

[Thorsten B.]

I wonder why he is participating.

There is no money in it.

[Robert H]

This posing photo is full of shame up to the human limit.

NG is full of **** and I wonder how someone can even smile on this posing photo.
I hope the Russian or German ghots are coming back them incl. my mothers father.
Shame on them!

[Mil-Archive]

I wonder why he is participating.

There is no money in it.

If National geographic air that 'documentary' it will be on rotation and repeated every few months, they'll sell it to other networks in other countries and there would be some kind of revenue coming in from it for the next few years.

Maybe CG did it for self promotion to increase his profile getting indirect Free TV Advertising for the next 4-5 years ? Also whatever money and expenses he gets may not be so minimal, a show like that has no production values and low costs I would have thought. Or maybe he just did it in the hopes it would lead to more reality tv work ?

[Tom Castell]

Craig Interviewed on Glenn Beck's Blaze.

http://www.video.theblaze.com/media/...y_31679729&v=3

Tom

[Skyhawk]

The hunters and their prey. A nice smile after a days work and a perfect presentation of a "Nazi". How deep can one sink to pose for such a picture?
He really might be in trouble in Kassel/Germany when some of the "more-right leaning" attendants get a hold of the story. They will beat him up badly!

Absolutely shameful to the highest degree no matter what the original nationality of the remains!