Dr. Mengele Passport Found

[Wagriff]

I could actually give a cow's tail about the identity of the Passport's owner....I'd still like to hear how a 1956 Argentine Police ID Photo ended up 8 years earlier being on an Italian Passport with official ink stamps on it. For some reason, this has never been explained by the owner as of just yet.

[birdie]

Yes we have the answer

I could actually give a cow's tail about the identity of the Passport's owner....I'd still like to hear how a 1956 Argentine Police ID Photo ended up 8 years earlier being on an Italian Passport with official ink stamps on it. For some reason, this has never been explained by the owner as of just yet.

Discussed earlier, and explained....

[Wagriff]

Hmm...he went offline without answering a straight and politely asked question. I guess that pretty much IS the answer, in that case.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I have asked myself this afternoon whether it’s worthwhile to continue to take the abuse, innuendo, anonymous bravado, “computer courage,” rudeness, and childish, misdirected wit (admittedly, amidst a bunch of good guys, most of whom are too busy to involve themselves with threads like this), or just bow out like just about EVERY full-time dealer (and many, but certainly not all, serious collectors) has.

You might not like it but in the spirit of being fair and as a response of being called some names, I would like to point out that your fourth post in this thread (after having given us the link to the TV piece and after having explained that the passport was vetted by the Italian Embassy (the one in Washington?) and several other experts) was like this:

I open all investigations of the passport. It's already been looked at by other experts, but whether you like it or not, I know my stuff with respect to documents, and given the provenance that comes with it, I know it's real. Anyway ... the photo on the passport was taken in Genoa or somewhere in Europe. The photos taken a little while later, which appear on the police documents, were taken in Argentina. Of interest, it has come to my attention that the document hoard was featured in an Argentinian magazine many years ago, but nobody really paid attention to it. That is, until now. Anyway, in the short-term, I'm going to have images reproduced in larger format for museum use, until a suitable home is found for it.

Now, after all the publicity and all the Wikipedia advertisement and all the things that have been uncovered by experts which made clear even to the most uneducated document collector that this passport cannot be in any way shape or form be what you announced on TV, in newspapers and on Wikipedia, you try to shift the blame to this forum and its members.

I don't think that this is correct. You invited everybody to comment, you asked basically for investigation and now - after this devastating result - you try to shift blame on "abuse, innuendo, anonymous bravado, “computer courage,” rudeness, and childish, misdirected wit."

That is not right! Own your mistakes, be a man, fess up to the premature publicity and the bad things your "publicist" did for you and learn from it! There is such a thing as "overselling" and this is a classic case!

[tanker]

Well said! Ron

[mkVsten]

Beep beep back up the bus... I just finished reading all 11 pages of this thread...WOW! I need to pick up more popcorn for tomorrow night for sure!

[mkVsten]

Did anyone see this? Josef Mengele's Italian passport that he used to flee Europe!
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/...gele-passport/


Erich

Just read the first post again and the news article from www.utsandiego.com, did any one noticed the photo in the news article of the Argentine police documents and the Italian passport? One of the documents share the same photo as the passport...



Perhaps this has already been pointed out, if so my apologies.

[eldenwaff]

I serve the truth and history here, and will reveal everything when I am ready.

Were you serving truth & history when you tried to cajole Don Boyle, one of the most respected voices in TR collecting, into cooking up a fake COA for your financial benefit ?
You are a shyster Craig, pure and simple, and the only way I'd ever respect you is if you admitted what you are instead of trying to parade yourself as some paragon of pure virtue.

Rest assured, that my findings will satisfy both the most discriminating skeptic and spirited believer. There will be no further comments from me until my work is done, other than to reiterate what I've stated above.

Can you at least come clean with the source of this questionable document ?
Do you care that, in the 1 in 1,000,000 chance that you happen to be wrong, that he may be cooking up more schemes to defraud others as we speak ?
Its not like he is some confidential source and you are sworn to secrecy, is it ?
He is a public player, attending shows and pushing merchandise, as such you could regain a certain measure of respect around here by simply outing who you got this thing from, thats what bother me and many others the most.

[alexanderautogr]

Thank you, Dietrich, for finding this quote among hundreds.

This is what provoked attention and investigation:

"...I open all investigations of the passport. It's already been looked at by other experts...the photo on the passport was taken in Genoa...The photos taken a little while later, which appear on the police documents, were taken in Argentina...I'm going to have images reproduced in larger format for museum use..."

This is part of what triggered the investigation on this forum. Even if you take away all the even slightly unrelated "smarmy" comments, the evidence is pretty solid. Evidence presented by "elementary school" "bullies", who are "mean spirited", "jealous", "cheeky", and "...have turned this thread into one about [you] and not about the artifact...".

There is no doubt that this passport is a forgery. Is it contemporary? We'll see. But what everybody will come away with is a long memory of Craig's statements (or lack thereof), attitude, and behavior throughout this entire revolting episode.

[alexanderautogr]

(I have edited my original post here as it was poorly phrased and might be misunderstood by the layman. I think that my previous statements on this thread more than support my feelings about this embarrassing, if not disgraceful event.)

Please, let's stay on topic. Character assassination, psychiatric analyses, and name-calling will get this thread deleted. And if it's deleted, we go to Round 10 in the saga of Craig Gottlieb and his questionable professional behavior.

I'm not not screaming, I'd just like the thread to remain open long enough to see the purported "results", from whatever "experts" Craig may employ to do his work. My intellectual curiosity demands it.

I think everyone has the same goal, regardless of how intransigent Craig may be.

I see and fully understand the frustration here, and on other forums as well. No one (here) has examined this piece first-hand, but even the scant evidence available online has convinced me that it is neither legit nor period. Craig has all but acknowledged it's a forgery, but from what year? There again, it's obvious to even the casual observer that the documents, all of them, are from the mid 1950's. Or more likely, 2013.

In my earlier post here, I claimed that I would always give a colleague "the benefit of the doubt". That does NOT mean that I will concede that the piece is authentic - it means prove it's authentic, and in a timely manner.

If he was more concerned about his reputation here, among his peers, rather than on television or in the press, I'm sure he'd be more forthcoming. He's proven otherwise, and has been rightfully condemned.

[Belten]

I disagree about it not having been proven to be a fake, or at least not what it was initially claimed to be. Gottlieb originally claimed that it was the passport used by Mengele to escape Europe in 1949. Clearly, the photo was taken in 1956 in Argentina, so it is not that same passport. It is possible that Mengele created a fake passport at some point after the photo was taken, but it is obviously not the one he used in 1949, if he did indeed use one at all. Of course, the possibility that Mengele ever touched this (or that it even existed during his lifetime) is so remote as to be effectively beyond belief.

[McCulloh]

Fascinating thread on so many levels. I especially enjoyed the tres Belle comments by EldenWaf . Like the old days.
I know a lot about fakes and there are a couple of basic rules that forgers always follow. the first is: "who profits?" And "how much"?

Mengeles' life story is fuzzy from 1963 onwards, but his file at the Wiesenthal Center and the US Holocaust Museum is pretty extensive and worth reviewing here. especially considering the dates on Police document #1.

As for this forum being ' by collectors and for collectors'........want to guess why I'm not a Moderator here anymore......?

Like Bob Hoskins says in Mona Lisa...." never, ever,ever, ever screw with someone's income stream"........

[Chris Boonzaier]

IMHO this thread is veering off course....

Craig contempt for the members/collectors is insulting... but that is not the issue.


Its all about the passport.

What will the outside team of experts prove?

If the Passport is real... or fake?

My money is on the passport once upon a time being real. So if the experts prove that, I will not be suprised.

I dont think we are dealing with a master faker who made a passport using a pile of blank paper and secret inks...

More likey a guy who found an old Italian passport and just stuck an old photo in it.

So what are the outside team of experts going to do?

1) Either date the photo... and see if it was glued in while Mengele was on the lam... or last year
2) Using some secret CIA trick to find out that the glue that holds the photo in was only made and used in Genoa in 1945-48

There wont be a "Made in China" watermark and as such, I think anyone who believed this was "Self authenticating" will continue to do so.

all the facts are on the table, poking with a stick is not going to get a debate going... just step back and see where the runaway trains comes to a stop?

[J. Wraith]

IMHO this thread is veering off course....

Craig contempt for the members/collectors is insulting... but that is not the issue.


Its all about the passport.

What will the outside team of experts prove?

If the Passport is real... or fake?

My money is on the passport once upon a time being real. So if the experts prove that, I will not be suprised.

I dont think we are dealing with a master faker who made a passport using a pile of blank paper and secret inks...

More likey a guy who found an old Italian passport and just stuck an old photo in it.

So what are the outside team of experts going to do?

1) Either date the photo... and see if it was glued in while Mengele was on the lam... or last year
2) Using some secret CIA trick to find out that the glue that holds the photo in was only made and used in Genoa in 1945-48

There wont be a "Made in China" watermark and as such, I think anyone who believed this was "Self authenticating" will continue to do so.

all the facts are on the table, poking with a stick is not going to get a debate going... just step back and see where the runaway trains comes to a stop?

The issue is a double edged sword. Its not just the passport as much as predatory marketing. The passport should be a no brainer for a novice but somehow its not. No one would go near this that I know. I get so much mail on items that sometimes I just want to kill myself and I have to park them and answer them when I feel I can be civil with what are often are obvious fakes.

This piece should be easy, I do not need a Gottlieb or a Alexander Auctions. I need common sense. Apparently common sense is in short supply and no one wants to pay for that, so they go for the mojo. You really have to know what your dealing with, and in this hobby there are no guarantee's but there are batting averages. I have not bought a dime from Gottlieb in 12 years. I do not trust him and I have reason.

Collectors should be detail oriented and educated but in many cases do not know here to start. I think that is o.k and I understand that, but they also have to understand the predators and how they operate. And that is on T.V.

There ain't no way that any Mengele signature is correct without serious authentication and there ain't no way you should trust any smooth talking t.v star into buying anything he says is right. You may doubt me and that is your decision but your on your own at that point. Its really your decision but reality T.V is like herpes and if you want herpes? You know where to go.

[Marcel Banziger]

I don't think we'll ever see the final outcome from Mr. Gottlieb's investigation. It looks like it's a recent fake and everybody probably knows it. Therefor no more updates from Craig himself here on this forum and I guess he will remain silent about the outcome of the investigation in the hope that the interest in this topic will fade out in the future which creates an easy way out of the mess he created with this "self-authenticating artifact". Mr. Alexanderautogr's findings were very convincing to me and I really wonder why Craig doesn't wanna cooperate together with this expert in paperwork??

And though not relevant to this passport I still think Mr. Gottlieb's megalomania is quite disturbing. This hobby is all about collecting, not about making yourself look important within this small world of TR collectors. I wonder if he ever sells those autographed photos of himself on his website? I mean, I wonder who ever would like to own such a photo and pay this amount of money for it??