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    #16
    Originally posted by LarryHW. View Post
    1. The fact is that the SS was the military arm of the Nazi party and the Nazi regime's ultimate shield and sword. SS members were fully indoctrinated.

    2. The website describing this guy's reenactor unit presented a glorified history of the particular unit, carefully omitting the crimes it was involved in.

    3. To say that there was more to the Waffen SS than their atrocities is like saying that, other than the Iceburg, the Titanic had a fine journey. The Waffen SS engaged in a variety of war crimes and mass executions. The "distinction" some try to draw between the Waffen SS and other SS units is a distinction without a difference.

    4. To compare the Waffen SS to other western "elite" military units is to show a stunning ignorance of history. People making these comments should at least try to learn the facts before posting on what is meant to be a forum for serious and educated discussion.

    5. If the best someone can come up with is that "...there was wrong done on all sides during the war" they are, in effect, defending the SS by inferring that they did nothing worse than what everyone else did. It is time to start reading a few decent and respected books on WWII and Nazi Germany, and I don't mean those by fiction writer David Irving. We should expect better from Austrialia's education system.
    You raise some great points but there is room for a little nuance. Obviously the SS ran the camps, precisely the SSTK, which became a full military formation eventually becoming the 3rd SS Panzer division.

    3rd SS Panzer was a purely military force, yes technically these were political soldiers. But they emulated their Heer counterparts, and fought magnificently. Later in the war there were very, very few soldiers that had ever staffed a camp. This division was mostly comprised of young volunteers who underwent military training, and almost no political indoctrination. That was a major complaint of the political leadership of Germany; that Waffen SS soldiers were not receiving proper political indoctrination.

    Of course the invasion of Russia began as simple conquest. Hubris yielded to desperation and soon, not only Germany, but all of Europe was faced with Bolshevik invasion. The Waffen SS became the largest multinational VOLUNTEER force ever fielded. Yes there were German cadres that formed up the subsequent foreign volunteer divisions, but the reality is huge numbers of French, Dutch, Belgium and other nationals joined. Men who had no clue of what horrors lay behind the wires of the camps. The bad stuff was highly compartmentalized.

    The SS was a rapidly evolving and complex animal. And yes, the atrocities committed by the SS are unparalleled in modern times. Nothing the Allies did compares to the horrors of the camps. But the linkage to the late war formations was not that direct. The SS units operating in 1939 looked vastly different from the divisions of 1944.

    I am a big History geek so I find the details fascinating. It is the complexities of the period that hold the keys to really understanding the times.

    Comment


      #17
      media just want spectacle, and are not interested in the truth of facts in these matters. So what he re-enacted SS ? So have I. Get over yourselves, its history, sure lets all portray allies, then we can fight trees and shrubs "on the weekend"

      Pathetic

      Comment


        #18
        goering

        Goering used the "they were just soldiers" tripe at Nuremburg.
        ..... It didn't work then .... and it don't work now.

        Comment


          #19
          There are plenty of elite German troops besides the ss to re-enact. FJ, PZ, Lehr, GJ, GD & the DAK among others.

          So what are the true facts ? Hmm lets see, the ss were disliked & feared by most German solders with good reason. They tarnished the reputation of Germany for the next thousand years. Killed Germans as well as Allies. Took alot of the best equipment away from the German Army. Oh forgot, Murdered Millions...Pathetic is right.

          Comparing the ss to the Rangers & SAS is not a good comparison. How many civilians did the Rangers & SAS murder ?

          Anyone in politics will have everything they have done examined by the other side to exploit weakness. Re-enacting in an ss unit is not a wise move if You plan to have a career in many vocations not just politics. How many of You have included ss re-enactor on your resume ?

          Never Forget
          Tim
          Last edited by Tim O'Keefe; 10-13-2010, 03:06 AM.

          Comment


            #20
            I'd

            I'd love to be a fly on the wall in years to come when some of the forum's grandchildren "re-enact" as Taliban.

            I wonder what type of justification they might give you ...

            "Oh it happened long ago ... it's History"

            "No there was "Good and bad Taliban", don't tarnish all the heroic "freedom fighters" this way".

            "They were only taking orders"

            "Both sides were as bad"

            "These were elite fighting soldiers only fighting for their country"


            "I collect AQ"

            All sounds a bit familiar ....
            Last edited by Gary Jucha; 10-13-2010, 06:25 AM.

            Comment


              #21
              Miss the point

              Originally posted by MarkChrisFrank View Post
              media just want spectacle, and are not interested in the truth of facts in these matters. So what he re-enacted SS ? So have I. Get over yourselves, its history, sure lets all portray allies, then we can fight trees and shrubs "on the weekend"

              Pathetic
              The immediate issue is not the fact of reenactment as much as the fact that the website for this reenactment unit "sanitized" the unit's history and that some try to minimize or deny the sordid history of the SS. The record of atrocities extends far, far beyond involvment with camps....village and town exectutions, assisting with deportations, driving large numbers of people into swamps...and the record extends far beyond Russia. Think Italy, France. Think executions of American POWS. The fact that the Waffen SS may also have been in battle does not detract from these facts.

              Yes, the SS was a different organization in 1944 than it was in 1939...different, but not better.

              Comment


                #22
                Those looking to be offended will be offended. Should Wikings website tell of all the allegations, and the crimes committed by every single SS troop or unit?



                DL

                Comment


                  #23
                  His political career vanished the moment this story hit the news. He will never get past this issue while other candidates will refuse to take him seriously. He was foolish to run for office with this in his background.

                  Bob Hritz
                  In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

                  Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post
                    His political career vanished the moment this story hit the news. He will never get past this issue while other candidates will refuse to take him seriously. He was foolish to run for office with this in his background.

                    Bob Hritz
                    Exactly. His public life is over. That is why parties carefully vet their candidates.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      What does the candidate really stand for?

                      This story illustrates why no sane person would want to run for office. The short attention span media spend all their time on a sensational story (a candidate dressing up in a Waffen SS uniform) and no time on what the candidate really stands for on the issues that are facing our country. I wouldn't mind having some re-enactors in office, they might know a little bit more about history and warfare than many of our current officeholders.

                      Based on the hundreds of books I have read on WWII, the German army, Waffen SS, police, foreign auxillaries and civilian authorities in Poland and Russia all participated in the systematic destruction of Jews, Poles, Russians, gypsies and others as directed by the German government at the time. I don't know about the Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine. That is just a fact I accept even though I collect German WWII militaria.

                      John

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by dcdefend View Post
                        This story illustrates why no sane person would want to run for office. The short attention span media spend all their time on a sensational story (a candidate dressing up in a Waffen SS uniform) and no time on what the candidate really stands for on the issues that are facing our country. I wouldn't mind having some re-enactors in office, they might know a little bit more about history and warfare than many of our current officeholders.

                        Based on the hundreds of books I have read on WWII, the German army, Waffen SS, police, foreign auxillaries and civilian authorities in Poland and Russia all participated in the systematic destruction of Jews, Poles, Russians, gypsies and others as directed by the German government at the time. I don't know about the Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine. That is just a fact I accept even though I collect German WWII militaria.

                        John
                        Agree with the first paragraph. But the DAK fought hard and skillfully. With little supply support from Germany yet, got further than any other German Corps. But did not commit any warcrimes. Jews were not deported to Germany for example....In Fact, they were the victims of warcrimes from the Allies on more than one occasion

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Didn't Prince Harry aka. Harry Hewitt once go to a party dressed like Hitler?

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by VtwinVince View Post
                            Didn't Prince Harry aka. Harry Hewitt once go to a party dressed like Hitler?
                            I dont think it was Hitler......he did wear the armband though



                            DL

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by DennyB View Post
                              The man in the RAF uniform is Mike Bollow, the man who organized "ReenactorFest" in the Chicago area. I have known him for years.
                              I wonder if this congressional candidate had portrayed a Heer Landser would his hobby been accepted differently?
                              I'd say nope. Wear any German Uniform even with a spike helmet and people in the public will insist you are a nazi. I know just from Halloween wearing my WWI re enactor's Kit. And good luck trying to educate someone in the most basic of facts. 1914-1918 First world war. Nazi's not yet invented. 1939-1945 Second world war run by Nazi party.

                              It's all the same to most people. If I was the guy who's running I'd drop out now and save the time and trouble.

                              W.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Ah, but the positive thing is now you can wear it forhalloween and just introduce yourself as Richard Iott.

                                Comment

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