From the desert

[DanReich]

Great story, sometimes little things that you think will add up to 0 take on a life of their own.

I agree that it should be offered to the klub, no doubt.
His home town, his childhood club, there cannot be doubt that thats the way he would prefer it, were he able to make the choice.
A small memorial with the proper simple display can easily be made at the klub, and perhaps you can go there some day and make some more friends.

I metal detect, and have tracked down owners of named rings and returned them.
While not on the level of war relics, to be sure, I think the goodness of your heart and common sense will demand it go back to the klub.

[Jürg]

Wow what a great story as well as the research. This is all what collecting is all about - the research on a specific item!

Great thread Jean-Loup

Jürg

[jacquesf]

The ultimate way to honor the vet is to return the pin to his hometown. It will become a great and permanent legacy to him. Something that can never be achieved in a private collection. Great work JeanLoup you are a real asset to this hobby. Jacques

[Military]

What JeanLoup has done is an inspiring way to research and to get just that piece of photo speaks volumes. Indeed its fascinating how much just a bit of research and some luck can take you.

My advice would also be to return the pin back. Im sure it would matter so much more to his family back home and to the football club with some history and a closure.

Mil

[Tino]

I am afraid that I am on the other side of the fence, keep the pin!
This is what you live for!
You travel the world finding items like this and it's not untill you make history come alive that people show interest.

How much does it mean to the soccerclub? I don't know, but I am not so sure any member of the soccerclub would have bought this item at a local flea market if it carried a 20.00 Euro pricetag on it.
I bet if I offered you $100.00 for this pin you would turn it down, so it's more than a worthless $4.00 trinket.

I am sure it has a lot of meaning for you, it is a memory of the time you spent in the desert, you made friends there, walked in the footsteps of the veteran and visited the memorial.
This is what you hunt for, collect, research and treasure.

I feel that this pin is in the right hands. I don't feel that you are obligated to return the pin.

Tino

[birdie]

Tino I think you are missing the point

///

I am afraid that I am on the other side of the fence, keep the pin!
This is what you live for!
You travel the world finding items like this and it's not untill you make history come alive that people show interest.

ANSWER: Well that's obvious, and a wonderful job he did.

How much does it mean to the soccerclub? I don't know, but I am not so sure any member of the soccerclub would have bought this item at a local flea market if it carried a 20.00 Euro pricetag on it.
I bet if I offered you $100.00 for this pin you would turn it down, so it's more than a worthless $4.00 trinket.

Answer: Yes you don't know what they would pay at a flea market. And if they bought it at a flea market they would not have the research and story behind it, and they would just be buying a random pin. You are missing the whole point of why it means more to them than just an old pin.

I am sure it has a lot of meaning for you, it is a memory of the time you spent in the desert, you made friends there, walked in the footsteps of the veteran and visited the memorial.
This is what you hunt for, collect, research and treasure.

Answer: All true but the fact is what memories would be lost from sending the pin home? It would add another chapter to the story and create more memories and good will...........




I feel that this pin is in the right hands. I don't feel that you are obligated to return the pin.

Answer: Jean Loup asked the question here to help make a decision, I don't know how you could say the pin could not be "in the right hands", at the hometown club. I also don't believe JL is obligated to do anything, nor is he a bad guy if he decides to keep it.




Tino

[BenVK]

Jean-Loup, I always enjoy reading your threads. They are an inspiration.

I'm not sure if I would send the badge either. I somehow doubt that this Football club would want to design a display that links one of it's old players with the "Nazi" Afrika Korps. Maybe I'm wrong about this but it has to be clarified with the club chairman first.

Prehaps a better idea would be to ask if the club can trace any living relatives of this man? Even then, I'm not sure they would cherish it as much as Jean-Loup. I've bought a few historical military items from people who made no mention that it was their fathers or grandfathers things that they were selling until after I had asked them where they got it from. I find it quite upsetting that they care so little about keeping them in the family but it happens all the time.

So, to be honest, the best place for these things is usualy (but not always) with the collector who found them, especially if it's someone as passionate about living history as Jean-Loup is.

[DaveNZ]

I'm not sure if I would send the badge either. I somehow doubt that this Football club would want to design a display that links one of it's old players with the "Nazi" Afrika Korps. Maybe I'm wrong about this but it has to be clarified with the club chairman first.

Hmmm yes this is a good point as of course we live in PC times

some clarification from the Club as to why they want the badge would be good.

at the end of the day JL, do what you feel is right for you

[Alan Smith]

Jean-Loup,

Based on the e-mail from the club, I am not sure they are really dead set on getting the pin back into their possession. In fact, it almost sounds like they tossed out the concept of you sending the pin to them as an afterthought, i.e. "well, maybe if he does not really want it, he will send it to us?"


Based on your posts on this Forum, we all know that you cherish the pin and will treasure it in your collection. Thus, maybe you should start off with sending detailed photos so that, if the club wants, it can put together a nice picture frame display for the wall in their facility? If the club then makes a heartfealt personal appeal to you indicating that they would really treasure the actual pin itself, then you can evaluate the situation at that time.

To me, the real service you have done is to provide the club with infomation regarding one of their long-lost members. In my opinion, the fact that you took the time and effort to follow up with the club is the real treasure here, and I think they will appreciate your act of kindness just as much regardless of whether or not they have physical possession of the pin.

Alan

[billcarson]

Jean-Loup, I always enjoy reading your threads. They are an inspiration.

I'm not sure if I would send the badge either. I somehow doubt that this Football club would want to design a display that links one of it's old players with the "Nazi" Afrika Korps. Maybe I'm wrong about this but it has to be clarified with the club chairman first.

Prehaps a better idea would be to ask if the club can trace any living relatives of this man? Even then, I'm not sure they would cherish it as much as Jean-Loup. I've bought a few historical military items from people who made no mention that it was their fathers or grandfathers things that they were selling until after I had asked them where they got it from. I find it quite upsetting that they care so little about keeping them in the family but it happens all the time.

So, to be honest, the best place for these things is usualy (but not always) with the collector who found them, especially if it's someone as passionate about living history as Jean-Loup is.

I have to totally disagree with you on this one, for starters the lads of the Afrika Korps are not regarded as Nazis.
Least not by their own, this being mostly down to Rommel and his legend in Germany and the respect shown by both sides to each other during those battles.
I think you also underestimate the passion that the Germans hold for the beautiful game. I have no doubt that the club would cherish this badge amongst its other trophies and club memorabilia.
Its a no-brainer Jean, take it there yourself on a match day.

[BenVK]

I have to totally disagree with you on this one, for starters the lads of the Afrika Korps are not regarded as Nazis.

You missed the point Bill. It's a possibility that the club would willingly put the badge on display alongside a photo of Metzger but make no mention of the fact that he was in the AK and no mention of how the badge was found as not to offend anyone. The war is still a very raw subject with a lot of Germans especially in smaller towns that lost a high percentage of their young men.

[Jägermarty]

I have to totally disagree with you on this one, for starters the lads of the Afrika Korps are not regarded as Nazis.
Least not by their own, this being mostly down to Rommel and his legend in Germany and the respect shown by both sides to each other during those battles.
I think you also underestimate the passion that the Germans hold for the beautiful game. I have no doubt that the club would cherish this badge amongst its other trophies and club memorabilia.
Its a no-brainer Jean, take it there yourself on a match day.

This ^^

[Douglas Jr.]

J-L,

A marvellous topic and magnificent story behind this simple little piece.
I'm really impressed with what came up from this little tin.

Regarding your doubt if you should send it back to the club or not: it's your decision and if you decide to keep it, there is no reason to be ashamed of. In fact I would only return the item if the club staff could compromise themselves to build a small and permanent public display in order to honor their former fallen associate. On the contrary, keep it with you!

So, IMHO, the first step is to ask them what they intend to do IF the badge returns to them.

Douglas.

[Carsten135]

Last year i walked trough a german cementery to visit a dear friend and set a light on his grave to honnor him for his good friendship to me and when i walked back trough the graveyard i saw so so meny graves whitout a name fallen in war well knowing that those people did there turn and made history good or bad, and i almost cryed knowing that i dont have the resource to bring back them there name and history which will be the right thing to do.
we all have relichs hidden away in closet, chatolls etc bec we know the things has been a part of history but most of the time we dont know the history behind the relichs ( owner, place etc ) whit your exellent reserch you have a name and a relich witch is a very rare and ambivalent situation for a collector, but on the other side you are also a " cleark" for history and now we know the history on the forum so do the right thing man dont hide history make it public and give them there history back its belong to them and for us to maintain and enjoy, thats why we are here.

Bedst regards
Carsten

[FLiPSiDE]

Jean-Loup this is an amazing story that makes the hair on my neck stand up when I read it (we talked about it via email but I wanted to share my opinions on the forum as well). You are a true historian my friend and this is exactly the type of thing that keeps you going!

It is a tough call whether or not to send the item to the current football club. However, I don't think anyone should judge Jean-Loup harshly if he decides to keep an item he himself brought back from Egypt and tirelessly researched, etc. As perhaps for most collectors on this forum this is nothing more than a bit of tin with a neat story. However, Jean-Loup is not most collectors. He's not after the mint pilots badge with the rare clasp (and a multi-thousand dollar price tag) he is after exactly this type of item. He spends his free time researching, tracking down and speaking with surviving veterans, exploring long forgotten battlefields, etc. He is a historian first, and a collector second. I find it hard to believe that the modern football club members would give this interesting item nearly the respect Jean-Loup would. It is entirely up to Jean-Loup if he should or should not give it away. If Jean-Loup does decide to hand it over, (as others have said) I would make sure it would be permently displayed somewhere public and not just end up pinned to a scarf in the current club organizers office or home (or carried around as a good luck token in someones pocket, etc).

If the football club is only interested in the history/story, merely writing up the story and posting a photo of it publicly would do as much to honor the life of the man who originally lost it. I don't see why one of the current members has a right to it anymore than Jean-Loup does? I really think he should keep it to ensure it is well cared for.

Great item and great story Jean-Loup! Thanks for sharing it with us.