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**Bcarver** · 08-27-2009, 08:31 PM

btt

Oath or not this brave soldier did what he belived was right for his nation and people. He escaped "all-lied" justice.

**Will Brown** · 08-27-2009, 08:58 PM

The same question could be asked about the tank ace Michael Wittman. He continues to fascinate many members of this forum, there are many threads to be found regarding him, and yet he was just as commited to duty and the nazi ideals as Remer (non-SS) ever was.

Both brave men fighting for a terrible cause, what more is there to be said?

**Sal Williams** · 08-31-2009, 03:26 AM

Originally posted by DerFuhrer View Post

Oath or not this brave soldier did what he belived was right for his nation and people. He escaped "all-lied" justice.

I guess you forgot that Ohio is in the United States, a country which fought against Germany and was an "All-lied" nation? Well , I guess I should expect this logic from DerFuhrer (which is pronounced der furer since you didn't put the umlaut or an 'e' after the 'u').

**Mark C. Yerger** · 08-31-2009, 06:44 AM

It's easy for many to judge when they sit in a chair 50 years later with hindsight.

How people react in situations, combat or otherwise, is far more involved than simply "rules and regs" set on paper.

Most also forget soldiers follow the orders of their elected government or process.

Not to say Holocaust type actions are acceptable.

But other aspects are more complicated than the "we won, punish them" mentality. And remember every allied army shot prisoners, etc in the heat of combat. To think otherwise is blind.

Amazing for a democratic country that Germany still has such paranoid book laws and restricts freedom of speech. Agree with a topic or not, freedom of speech and print is essential.

I'd assume German schools still give a very unbalanced teaching of WWII and all aspects of the Third Reich (or totally ignore it).

**ichabod** · 08-31-2009, 07:15 AM

I agree with Sal. While many wrongs and injustices were done by the All-Lied's they pale in comparison to what were perpetrated by the Third Reich. We can agree that brave men fought on both sides but let's not forget that the all- lied cause was a just one.

**peterm** · 08-31-2009, 08:12 AM

Thank You for Your words Mark !!! Good to read something like this coming from America !

Kind regards, Peter

**stray_dog** · 08-31-2009, 09:25 AM

I stay away from such threads usually, for reasons that I think are understandable... When I really become tempted to answer, my answer is consisting of 2 pages in Word, just to take as much aspects into consideration as possible and that's not even close to enough. But then, I delete the whole thing before posting it, as I don't see the point at all...

But I would just like to mention some points here. Yes, political correctness (and I am talking about the ww2 era topic here) is indeed something imposed by contemporary political scene, which is trying to make everyone agree with today's dominant ideology. There is no such thing as objective history, history is being written by the victors of each era and what becomes public history can always be un- and rewritten.

Yes, the collective guilt of the next generations of Germans may have taken the proportions of a metaphysical self whipping with no ending, but there are surely existing problematic roots for this behaviour.

Germans were leading a racially fueled offensive war. They were perpetrators who have also experienced the role of the victim. But by comparing Allied bombings and Soviet occupation with German war crimes, is creating another danger: Although all of the actions are cruel and inhuman, it can lead to a relativity of "all sides doing the same, so there's nothing that wrong with the one side doing it, too".

And something else. Although National Socialism was the creation of a whole era in political and economical level, it didn't come by itsself. German people were not always obliged to follow this ideology, they elected a party that was promising a dictatorship. It was not an one-way road, other people, later in exile or in KZ, were opposing this and the dangers were spoken loud. So before oaths and orders, they had made a choice.

Yes, a witch hunt is still existing. But on the other hand, war criminals were also left untouched and made great carreers in the new cold war scene. So, "Justice" was and still is lame in both ways...

Saying all this, the thread has already ran off its course, but that's what's always happening with these threads, after all...

Cheers, Giorgos

**Theodor** · 08-31-2009, 10:21 AM

Well said. And another important thing is to remember, that the values generally said were very different back then, it is difficult and pointless to apply the rules and values of today, to 1935 or 1940.

Dictatorship. Nowadays the very word brings very negative reaction. But several decades ago this was a popular and desired by many nations form of state control.

Antisemitism. It is not a WW2 only thing and not a German only thing. Shooting/stabbing/beating/burning/robbing jews has been a national sport for most European /and not only/ tribes and nations for a couple of millennia. Although this is highly neglected today, even at 1939 the antisemitism was spread far over the German borders. For example, Poland had advanced antisemitic laws prior to WW2 and the Polish-French joint plan to evacuate the jews to Madagascar was researched long before the "usual suspects" /the Germans/ got any such idea. Or the USSR, which also well made attempts to wipe that population /after the Russian Empire had supressed them for enough long time and locked them in the so-called Pale of settlement/.

Or even the war itself. Against any logic, law and morale, some German military commanders were sentenced to very heavy penalties for crimes against the peace, starting an aggressive war and other such things, proven by History to be nothing but BS. Wars have been raging through Europe and through the world since the very beginning of the human history. If there was a Peace for centuries and the bad, bad Germans cowardly broke it - then Ok. But there is no such thing, war after war was fought before that and war after war was fought after that. If someone to blame, it is the scientists before the military men, because only the advanced technology allowed the more recent wars to reach such extent and such death toll.

The Nazis invented very little new. It was all done before. And the worst part is, a lot of the bad things /making them so bad for the current world/ are still done again and again. Despite the loud words, imposing declarations, PC and P agendas postwar, the mankind has learned nothing. Just try to calculate the war deaths in the "postwar" world and BTW don't draw the final line, because the number is growing daily. I do not really care for all people on this world, afrter all if they want so badly to kill each other, let them help themselves, but in the light of my collecting interests the BS PC pisses me a bit, because of all the exaggeration and generalization - I would never stop considering DUMB those people, who removed the name of Molders from the LW unit, because he participated in the war, never opposed the orders of the nazis and etc BS BS BS "reasons". And many other examples like that.

**Darrell** · 09-01-2009, 11:40 PM

IBTL

**AlifRafikKhan** · 07-17-2010, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by Mark C. Yerger View Post

It's easy for many to judge when they sit in a chair 50 years later with hindsight.

How people react in situations, combat or otherwise, is far more involved than simply "rules and regs" set on paper.

Most also forget soldiers follow the orders of their elected government or process.

Not to say Holocaust type actions are acceptable.

But other aspects are more complicated than the "we won, punish them" mentality. And remember every allied army shot prisoners, etc in the heat of combat. To think otherwise is blind.

Amazing for a democratic country that Germany still has such paranoid book laws and restricts freedom of speech. Agree with a topic or not, freedom of speech and print is essential.

I'd assume German schools still give a very unbalanced teaching of WWII and all aspects of the Third Reich (or totally ignore it).

Agree!!

**PANZER332** · 07-19-2010, 07:25 AM

I very smart and brave officer

**tgn** · 07-19-2010, 02:40 PM

Otto Ernst Remer? Nice fellow to me. I wrote him several times and he was always very pleasant. Got some signed photos and a signed copy of his book.

Tom

**LarryHW.** · 07-19-2010, 09:33 PM

Good points. The USSR--and Stalin's--actions in regard to Jews is way, way overlooked. From his purges of the 1930's, to the deportation of tens and tens of thousands of Jews from eastern Poland and the Baltic states to Siberia in 1939-40, the "Doctor's Plot" of 1952-53 and the show trials and refusal to allow emigration into the 1980's, the Soviet record was a dismal one. The USSR's action in this area only looked good in comparison to the Nazis. This is often overlooked and little understood by many.

Originally posted by Theodor View Post

Well said. And another important thing is to remember, that the values generally said were very different back then, it is difficult and pointless to apply the rules and values of today, to 1935 or 1940.

Dictatorship. Nowadays the very word brings very negative reaction. But several decades ago this was a popular and desired by many nations form of state control.

Antisemitism. It is not a WW2 only thing and not a German only thing. Shooting/stabbing/beating/burning/robbing jews has been a national sport for most European /and not only/ tribes and nations for a couple of millennia. Although this is highly neglected today, even at 1939 the antisemitism was spread far over the German borders. For example, Poland had advanced antisemitic laws prior to WW2 and the Polish-French joint plan to evacuate the jews to Madagascar was researched long before the "usual suspects" /the Germans/ got any such idea. Or the USSR, which also well made attempts to wipe that population /after the Russian Empire had supressed them for enough long time and locked them in the so-called Pale of settlement/.

Or even the war itself. Against any logic, law and morale, some German military commanders were sentenced to very heavy penalties for crimes against the peace, starting an aggressive war and other such things, proven by History to be nothing but BS. Wars have been raging through Europe and through the world since the very beginning of the human history. If there was a Peace for centuries and the bad, bad Germans cowardly broke it - then Ok. But there is no such thing, war after war was fought before that and war after war was fought after that. If someone to blame, it is the scientists before the military men, because only the advanced technology allowed the more recent wars to reach such extent and such death toll.

The Nazis invented very little new. It was all done before. And the worst part is, a lot of the bad things /making them so bad for the current world/ are still done again and again. Despite the loud words, imposing declarations, PC and P agendas postwar, the mankind has learned nothing. Just try to calculate the war deaths in the "postwar" world and BTW don't draw the final line, because the number is growing daily. I do not really care for all people on this world, afrter all if they want so badly to kill each other, let them help themselves, but in the light of my collecting interests the BS PC pisses me a bit, because of all the exaggeration and generalization - I would never stop considering DUMB those people, who removed the name of Molders from the LW unit, because he participated in the war, never opposed the orders of the nazis and etc BS BS BS "reasons". And many other examples like that.

**Kyle Harrington** · 07-21-2010, 03:02 AM

Swords

Mark may well be able to help here? I read somewhere Remer was offered swords to the RK for his part on 20/07/44, he refused suggesting to accept an honour for what was a stain on German arms (his opinion) would be dishonourable. Thoughts ?

**kale010** · 07-21-2010, 03:21 AM

Originally posted by stray_dog View Post

I stay away from such threads usually, for reasons that I think are understandable... When I really become tempted to answer, my answer is consisting of 2 pages in Word, just to take as much aspects into consideration as possible and that's not even close to enough. But then, I delete the whole thing before posting it, as I don't see the point at all...

Saying all this, the thread has already ran off its course, but that's what's always happening with these threads, after all...

I agree and this is a good time to close this thread.

Bob

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