Announcement

**Xray** · 04-24-2009, 01:38 AM

Originally posted by Matthew View Post

If you were to bother to open the link provided earlier on in this thread you could read it for yourself and see where the info came from (german soldier and a witness).
Far from sensationalist propaganda.
Have a nice evening

Matt

Don't get upset, I said "more often than not", maybe this is a "not".
Do you know for sure ? No.
Neither do I.
I said "If specific individuals can be tied to specific war crimes, fry em." What more do you want ?
How many innocent babies do you think were blown up and burned to death in Dresden ? Is one justifiable, the other not ?

**Gary Jucha** · 04-24-2009, 01:40 AM

t

Where Goering failed ....... Sir Arthur Harris succeeded.

**kompanie** · 04-24-2009, 02:36 AM

Originally posted by Matthew View Post

If you were to bother to open the link provided earlier on in this thread you could read it for yourself and see where the info came from (german soldier and a witness).
Far from sensationalist propaganda.
Have a nice evening

Matt

If you click home and then click witnesses there are lots of accounts from polish civilians/soldiers. (Not teaching people to suck eggs regarding using the internet.)

**Eric JB** · 04-24-2009, 05:01 AM

Originally posted by Xray View Post

If specific individuals can be tied to specific war crimes, fry em.
Kinda hard to do after 65 years.
Atrocities were no doubt comitted in Poland by German troops, but these "babies on bayonet" stories, I suspect, and more often than not sensationalist propaganda, in the same vein as skin lampshades and human body fat soap.

"sensationalist propaganda"

you are so wrong !!!

THERE ARE 3 TYPES OF PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD - THOSE WHO CAN READ, AND THOSE WHO CAN'T

**Xray** · 04-24-2009, 05:43 AM

Originally posted by Eric-Jan Bakker View Post

"sensationalist propaganda"

you are so wrong !!!

THERE ARE 3 TYPES OF PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD - THOSE WHO CAN READ, AND THOSE WHO CAN'T

Uh, thats only two.
The irony fails used in that context.
You are perfectly free to believe whatever on earth you wish, I hope that you grant me the same right.

**stray_dog** · 04-24-2009, 05:44 AM

Looking at the recent examples, threads considering war crimes and trials tend to degenerate to sources of irritation, because of sarcasm and lack of arguments and above all, the fact that while we all talk about "the history we collect", there is no conversation in these terms, but it looks more like petty ideological struggle.

Of course everyone has the right of opinion, there is no such thing as "objective" history, political opinion does influence the interpretation of facts and last but not least, people who may have nothing else in common than militaria collecting can't be expected to agree, specially on these matters.

I have a pretty radical political opinion myself, but I keep it outside of this forum, as it wouldn't contribute anything to it and I have other ways and places to express it. But historical conversation on mature terms is something else. Otherwise we should better stick to stahlhelm split pins and medal maker marks, not even touching other subjects with a pole...

I am not trying to play smart or point the finger at anyone, I am just making a comment on a situation that I personally find annoying, hence the tone. And maybe I am not the only one, as there might be more people who find it pointless to express themselves in these threads, although they do have an opinion.

Of course there is the "if you don't like it, don't read it" opinion, but since all open threads are exactly that, open, and they don't belong to anyone specially, I think that there is space for other opinions, too.

Sorry in advance if I sounded insulting.

Giorgos

**cysior** · 04-25-2009, 08:31 AM

After what Totenkopfbande did to milions people in concentration camps and after what Einsatzgruppe did to milions civilians in eastern europe - I just I don't understand how come some of them still walking the streets. They should hang them even now but after all these years I don't think it's possible to provide proof of their identity...

**paddywhack** · 04-25-2009, 01:02 PM

as has been said even if they DO get brought to trail(witch i really think they should) by the time they get everything ready to go etc more then likely it will be to late and they could well be dead as could any witness!! also its going to be very very hard to PROVE that these people who were in this brigade did what was said! its all very well saying they did these crimes but you have to PROVE it other wise arbitrarily saying "they did this or that" and sending them down makes us akin to them sadly!

**Xray** · 04-25-2009, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by paddywhack View Post

as has been said even if they DO get brought to trail(witch i really think they should) by the time they get everything ready to go etc more then likely it will be to late and they could well be dead as could any witness!! also its going to be very very hard to PROVE that these people who were in this brigade did what was said! its all very well saying they did these crimes but you have to PROVE it other wise arbitrarily saying "they did this or that" and sending them down makes us akin to them sadly!

Thats what I'm saying.
Its no doubt easy enough to dredge up eye witness testimony about bayoneted and burned babies, much different matter conclusively hanging those alleged crimes to specific individuals.

There is a certain segment which seems to believe that anyone even remotely tied to the German armed forces in WW2 should just be put on trial and shot, and it is they who are the driving force behind this.

**paddywhack** · 04-25-2009, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Xray View Post

Thats what I'm saying.
Its no doubt easy enough to dredge up eye witness testimony about bayoneted and burned babies, much different matter conclusively hanging those alleged crimes to specific individuals.

There is a certain segment which seems to believe that anyone even remotely tied to the German armed forces in WW2 should just be put on trial and shot, and it is they who are the driving force behind this.

and the ironic thing about those type of people is that their type of thinking is, well how the nazies thought!!! dont think they would get the irony though!

**Dennis S** · 04-25-2009, 02:20 PM

I am not defending war criminals , but a basic rule of law is commission of the crime. Being members of an organization that has been deemed criminal is not enough to prosecute.("Rico" is commiting a crime while a member of a criminal enterprise). know about there . Where they forced or conscripted etc. If it were , every member of every criminal organization could be arrested and imprisoned, but are not.
Without defending these fellows ,who knows they may have been bakers, cooks or never fired a shot in anger. Have these guys ever been accused of crimes. If they actually committed crimes then so be it. Posecute away.
I am not saying sanctions and deportation could not instituted against such for membership though, If they lied about there immigration status to Germany.

All I am saying is what I get from the original article which is basicly names on an index card..

**Xray** · 04-25-2009, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by paddywhack View Post

and the ironic thing about those type of people is that their type of thinking is, well how the nazies thought!!! dont think they would get the irony though!

Their motto is "Silence all who do not agree with us", and they play off of, and feed, the guilt still felt by many of European heritage - And you are right, their tactics and smear campaigns against all who do not buy into their mantra would indeed make the Nazis envious.
One only has to look to the anti denial laws of Europe, and the various anti-hate speech laws of other western nations to see that they have had some success in this regards.
I understand that societies have to keep checks against extremism of all types, but history by decree I shall never agree with.

**SurvivingPanzer** · 04-25-2009, 07:44 PM

The other day I meet a "evacuation baby", from a Jewish family who fled Frankfurt Main in the late thirties (1936 I think). He was only about 73. That could have been his brother or sister at the end of a bayonet.

What would you do, and when would you stop if it was your brother or sister that was killed?

If you say less than a lifetime you're either without family or without heart or soul.

**Xray** · 04-25-2009, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by SurvivingPanzer View Post

The other day I meet a "evacuation baby", from a Jewish family who fled Frankfurt Main in the late thirties (1936 I think). He was only about 73. That could have been his brother or sister at the end of a bayonet.

What would you do, and when would you stop if it was your brother or sister that was killed?

If you say less than a lifetime you're either without family or without heart or soul.

I'm all for vengeance - And by your logic there should be some old Germans wanting to hunt down some old Allied bomber pilots, because I don't consider dumping high explosive/incendiary bombs on civilian populations any more humane than shooting them point blank.
Typical double standard that folks like you always use, and never fail to side step the issue.
Address it directly, please - Why was [is] it Ok to slaughter civilian populations wholesale from the air, but yet its an automatic, eternal war crime to do it up close and personal ?

**SurvivingPanzer** · 04-25-2009, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by Xray View Post

There is a certain segment which seems to believe that anyone even remotely tied to the German armed forces in WW2 should just be put on trial and shot, and it is they who are the driving force behind this.

I understand you defending the basic infantryman on the German side. I know alot of good German people who are grandfathers of friends who were there, and there is no doubt that God fearing, loving and caring German soldiers existed.

However: Military records exist, and if your extremist view was the case we would have seen a "Nazi genocide" almost the size of the Jewish Holocaust.

Israel, who has been a major advocate of punishing former Nazi's, would need only to send a third grader to German Records Facility and they would have millions of names of people to hang. We are not talking James Bond classified records here. The majority of Wehrmacht armed forces passed through Allied prisons. Those records certaintly exist and more importantly are available.

This case is not against a unit who mistakenly threw a grenade into a basement to clear it of armed enemies, only to find a child holding a doll at the bottom of the stairs. These people saw the child, saw the doll, and came close enough (feet) to stick a bayonet in them.

A world of difference.

Announcement

Notorious SS unit 'traced'

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread