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Ferdinand and Elefant tank destroyers

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    Ferdinand and Elefant tank destroyers

    In 1942 Germany was running over countries until they attacked Russia and the Panzers ran right into the new T34 tank and the heavy tanks KV1 and KV2.

    The Panzer III and IV tanks couldnt stand up to the Russian armor so the call went out to develope some manner in getting the 88 mm mobile to effectively defeat these vehicles.

    The German high command wanted a heavy tank destroyer that was fully enclosed , highly armored and carrying the new Pak 43 88mm anti tank weapon, and they wanted this weapon system operationial by the summer of 1943.

    The Porsche company had failed in their attempt to provide and build the Tiger tank and it had 90 chassis available for use. This was the fastest method that the military could hope to fulfill the heavy antitank role.

    The chassis and drive train was inovative and untested, and it was designed to become a 45 ton heavy tank. I am sure that the Porsche engineers assurred the military they would solve the unreliability problems and since Hitler was a friend of Dr Porsche-------the order went to develope those unused chassis into the Ferdinand.

    It was a stopgap measure to fill the heavy antitank role, and not a substitute for the Jagdpanther (which wasnt on the drawing board at that timeframe).

    Only the 90 chassis were built up with no further thoughts to further production. It simply made use of what the Porsche company had on hand.

    It was classified as TOP SECRET--mainly because of the Pak 43 gun which was a more powerful 88 than being built into the Tiger I, and because it had 8 inches of armor plate protecting the forward surfaces of the vehicle. Nothing on the battlefield at that time could penetrate this surface.

    The vehicle weight soared to 65 tons on a chassis and drivetrain designed for 45 tons so the machine was basically self-destructive by being overweight.

    If we could go back to 1943 and train with the Ferdinand crews Im sure we would feel superior to whomever we would meet on the battlefield---knowing nothing could penetrate our forward armor and we were fielding a weapon with superior sighting and penetrating power. We would defeat anyone in our path. That type of confidence was built in training in new vehicles that in time and miles traveled would prove to be heavily overloaded and prone to rapid undercarriage wear, byt no one would know this while the vehicles were untested and new.

    We could also expect air support in attacks as well ample infantry support.

    Germany was so confident in their new weapons they literally broadcasted where they would attack and dared the Russians to come out to fight.

    A lot of what actually happened at Kursk is history now-------and the Ferdinand was more than a match for any weapon it faced in a head to head combat situation in Russia or anywhere on the battlefield.

    Terribly overweight meant it was limited to where it could be deployed effectively, the undercarriage damaged easily by mines and multiple antitank measure stripped the vehicles of infantry support when attacking. Limited visability in the Ferdinand may have put many units at risk from side or rear attacks by antitank units.

    All of these things spelled death for many Ferdinand crews at Kursk and in the following battles.

    Sadly most of the Ferdinands were destroyed and later photographed in Russia and limited photos are available of these remarkable vehicles. Only one Ferdinand survived and its being well kept in a museum near Moscow.

    The surviving Ferdinands were withdrawn and modified to make them more survivable and these were renamed Elefants.

    Anyone with photos of Ferdinands and Elefants are encouraged to post them here. I would love to see and share them.
    Randy

    #2
    Theres 1 here in Maryland,USA captured during the push for Rome.
    Pictures have been posted on the WAF.
    Untill recently you could enter it.

    Steve

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      #3
      Excellent summary on the Ferdinands, Randy. I might only add that the Germans omitted one critical variable from their equation to build the SPG to end all SPGs: attack from the air.

      Most of the Ferdinands knocked out in combat during the Kursk operation ("Zitadelle") were destroyed by waves of Il-2s dropping showers of the VVS's new PTAB (Protivotankovyye Aviabombyy) bombs on and around the Ferdinand. These little 2.5 kg bomblets were dropped 192-220 at a time in a density of one bomb per 15 square meters. With a blast effect of 11,000 meters per second, they could penetrate 60 mm of armor. The armor protection over the Ferdinand's fuel tanks was only 20 mm thick. I'll leave the rest to your imagine. Good night Irene.

      However, as you clearly pointed out, many of the monsters broke down or bogged down before they reached the HKL and were thus disabled before they could be brought to action.

      The Germans designed and built good stuff before and during the war, but the Ferdinand was not one of them.

      See:
      Bergström, Christer. Kursk - The Air Battle: July 1943. Ian Allan Publishing, 2007. p. 41.

      Comment


        #4
        Really intrusting thread people....Sounds like Ivan invented the Cluster Bomb?

        Was it the Ferdinands that had the lack of small arms to fend of the Hordes of infantry who were armed with sticky bombs?

        Regards

        Comment


          #5
          If you have not seen this web site, then it is worth a look - Surviving Panzers. http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Panzers.html

          It has PDF files with photos of known surviving WWI and WWII tanks. On eof the files has recent photos of two Elephants - one at Aberdeen Proving Ground (captured in Italy) and the other at the Kubinka Tank Museum (captured in Russia).

          I understand the Aberdeen Elephant was partially restored earlier this year.

          Comment


            #6
            Sounds like Ivan invented the Cluster Bomb?
            The Luftwaffe had a large variety of cluster bombs in use well before Kursk. See the AB and BDC series:

            http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/bombs.html

            Comment


              #7
              Thank you Larry, really intresting site!

              Thats one for my favorites list


              Regards,

              Comment


                #8
                Elefant at Aberdeen

                I saw that vehicle in 76 when I first went to Aberdeen. The last 2 times Ive been there I didnt see the elefant.
                I have a photos with that elefant at home somewhere.
                It has been at least partially restored--with a new paint job (not my favorite) but looks at least taken care of for the time being.
                Other forums made comments about shell gouge marks on the front face and gun shield wondering if they were "made". Those were on the vehicle when it was captured and just highlights on the new paint job. Those were the real deal.
                The vehicle also had zimmert on it when captured but I guess it got sand blasted or water blasted off through the years.
                It still has the vehicle number applied that it had when captured.
                I guess I will have to go to Russia to see the Ferdinand.
                Randy

                Comment


                  #9
                  Some of the Aberdeen Proving Ground armor exhibits were transferred to the U.S. Army Armor Museum at the Armor Training Center at Fort Knox, Kentucky. Could the Elefant have been one of them?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Here is what I know - the Elefant was sighted in March 2008 at Aberdeen:
                    http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207...efant+restored
                    For a comparison of what it looked liked before its restoration:
                    http://www.fourfold.ca/billm/Aviatio...fant/index.htm

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Super pics! Looks great! What a tremendous different a couple of hundred thousand man-hours of toil and sweat can make. I'll bet if "Dave" and "Jeff" (the discussion forum you provided the link to) had donated a few hundred of those hours each, their little juvenile mouths would be smiling in pride instead of laughing at and deriding someone else's efforts and financial expenditure!

                      I am pretty sure the Elefant was already on display there when we took a drive up to APG from Fort Myers South Post in Arlington in 1960 and spent a very enjoyable Saturday afternoon in June examining the exhibits.

                      Thanks for your research, MLW!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I don´t like this "like new" look of most of the panzers in the museums.
                        Looks weird.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          How do i post photos

                          I have some pictures I picked off of the internet that are pretty good and some from a Russian site but I cant figure out how to post them.
                          I also have some shots of my little Ferdinand and Elefant herd in my office that I could post.
                          Incidently the King and Country Elefant (diecast and 1/32 scale) is excellent.

                          Ive seen several Ferdinands that were factory made in hobby shops here in China that Im going to try to buy----------just because they look good (better than I can do) and the price would be right.

                          Thanks for the photos posting. I will try to do some when I figure it out.
                          Randy1945

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Hi Randy

                            Thanks again for the intresting thred......Regarding you posting photos, I think you have to be a Association Member to do this

                            Regards

                            Comment


                              #15
                              To post photo's anybody ( non members included ) can use imageshack or similiar...

                              Comment

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