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Ferdinand and Elefant tank destroyers

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    #16
    cluster bombs and lack of selfdefense

    I wasnt aware of the little cluster bombs being used, but wouldnt the fuel tanks on any tank be in danger of such a weapon. I can see that most vehicles did not have thick armor on top or around engine decks from the tops.

    I think thats why any attacks from above (rockets, cannons, or bombs)were fairly sucessful against armor since they were built for fighting other vehicles mainly.

    The Ferdinands werent designed or built initially for self defense since they were built primarily for long distance head on assualts. They were dependent upon infantry and other vehicle support to be effective. Even a bow machine gun wouldnt do much good if the tracks were blown, or the vehicle was bogged down. One would have to turn the whole vehicle to bring a bow machine gun into play------and the Ferdinands didnt turn well when in good shape, and I suspect wouldnt turn any if one track were disabled.

    There seems to be some evidence that the air intakes and engines being forward of the fighting compartment allowed exploding ordinance to glance or explode very close to the engines and air intakes. These areas were reinforced after the first combat to help limit damage to these areas.

    There were only about 90 Ferdinands ever built, and after the first combat and the resulting retreat under fire there were only roughly half of the Ferdinands left to be modified into the Elefant versions.

    I run heavy equipment and I still cannot imagine having 200 mm of solid armor plate on the front face of that vehicle. Those crews must have felt pretty confident knowing they wouldnt be destroyed by any known antitank cannon from the front during combat. I suspect most never thought about side or rear attacks by antitank units or infantry, or cluster bombs from above.

    That is until it was too late.

    Randy1945

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      #17
      Ferdinands at Kursk

      Ok I dont understand how to post but here is a website with great photos that were taken of Ferdinands captured or destroyed at Kursk.

      http://grayknight.narod.ru/Ferds_Kursk_43/htm

      I suspect there are many of these types of photos in Russia but I have no idea of where or how to find or see them.

      The Russians have the photos since that is where most of the Ferdinands fought and where most were left after the German retreat.

      Its a shame but most must have ended up as scrap metal------although I guess its possible someone has one parked in a private collection or in a barn, or maybe sunk in one of those bogs where that 65 tons would have buried them deep.

      The one in the museum looks to have been well cared for---at least the Russians seemed to realize the value of preserving the history of these vehicles.

      Randy1945

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        #18
        Randy the link does not work for me maybe proplem my end?......If u want i can post photos on your behalf

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          #19
          Hi

          Here is the link.

          http://grayknight.narod.ru/Ferds_Kur...s_Kursk_43.htm

          Cheers

          Karl

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            #20
            thanks carl

            Thanks for getting the link straight for us. There are some good shots in this group and Im sure many more elsewhere, but I dont know where to look.
            Thanks again for helping.
            Randy1945

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              #21
              So the total losses for Abt. 653 and Abt. 654 appears to be 13 + 26 = 39? That was all at Kursk, or so goes the implication.

              Anyway, excellent photos. I especially liked the one with the babushkas with wooden rakes not 35 meters in from of one of them, and probably taken just a few weeks after the battle. I sure hope any land mines had been removed by then.

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                #22
                Great Pics


                The Damage inflicted on some of these Monster in the photos is hard to believe it could happen, I bet the crews were taken by surprise

                Are all the photos in the link taken from Kursk.......is there Ferdinands in winter camouflage?


                Regards

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                  #23
                  the best source of photos of eliphant tank destroyers that ive found so far is in Karlheinz Munch book "the combat history of heavy anti tank unit 653 in WWII"there are lots of photos and alot of excellent information,its my favorite WWII book!!the link had some great after the battle photos ,thanks for posting that!im still bummed i missed the Schwere Panzerjager abt.653 soldbuch that was offered by a forum member a few months back,i was broke at the time!

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                    #24
                    Books

                    Both of the large format books are available still. I was able to buy both books earlier this year by keeping an eye out when someone wanted to sell--especially the lst book.

                    Excellent photos---very clear and glossy large pages.

                    Interesting reading as well on day to day living with the crews.

                    Does anyone have any other photos of these vehicles?

                    I found 4 photos via the internet showing an elefant on its side in Italy but I dont know how to get them on here.
                    Randy1945

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by Randy1945 View Post
                      Both of the large format books are available still. I was able to buy both books earlier this year by keeping an eye out when someone wanted to sell--especially the lst book.

                      Excellent photos---very clear and glossy large pages.

                      Interesting reading as well on day to day living with the crews.

                      Does anyone have any other photos of these vehicles?

                      I found 4 photos via the internet showing an elefant on its side in Italy but I dont know how to get them on here.
                      Randy1945
                      right click and save as:...then go to imageshack or similar and post here. Hope this helps...

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                        #26
                        no close in defense

                        Many articles concerning the Ferdinands noted that there was no hull machine gun for self-defense.

                        I have been looking at most antitank vehicles that Germany altered or fielded, as well as SP guns and it doesnt seem that any ever had hull machine guns.

                        Tanks had them, but tank destroyers and sp guns didnt.

                        Even if the Ferdinands had a hull machine gun it would only help if your attackers were in front of you --in view and range of the traverse of the gun.

                        If the vehicle was stuck, or track blown by anti-tank weapon or mines you couldnt bring a hull machine gun to bear on attackers from the side or rear.

                        Does anyone know the actual traverse range of hull mounted machine guns?

                        Does anyone have any Ferdinand or elefant photos to post?



                        The earlier ones in this forum do not show on my computer.

                        Randy1945

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                          #27
                          Ferdinand photos

                          photo taken in the St. Valentin factory
                          Attached Files

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                            #28
                            Ferdinand photos

                            view of the massive front armour
                            Attached Files

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                              #29
                              Ferdinand photos

                              side view
                              Attached Files

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                                #30
                                Ferdinand photos

                                full side view
                                Attached Files

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