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**behblc** · 10-26-2007, 11:45 AM

"Witness statements are unreliable even after an event happens add 60 yrs and...oh boy."

They may not be cyrstal clear and may contain some errors but this does not make them worthless or something that should be set aside and ignored.
I have been down this road before but by and large if you have a first hand account you can often marry it to the facts.
This is what loking at history is all about - be grateful for any first hand accounts which we may still be able to obtain.
( Finding and obtaining them is a task in itself - trust is a big part of being able to obtain anything - this has been my experience).

**SurvivingPanzer** · 03-11-2009, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by Jean-Loup View Post

The man is in perfect mental health as far as I can see, but I think you guys are right that he has some kind of denial. He first refused to talk about it, then accepted, and now says that this isnt what he said and doesnt make any sence, and he doesnt want to say anything any more... He said he doesnt care about what happened 60 years ago. He seemed very upset for somebody who doesnt care.
He also wrote the story for me at one point, but with no details and no emotional comments, in other words a boring technical text...

JL

JL you have done great work so far, dont let one bad apple ruin the bunch. He is probably just not ready to confront like most have mentioned. Keep your work up, you are doing valubale historical work.

**Dennis J** · 03-12-2009, 09:26 AM

What do you guys think about the quality of this oral account?

I know first hand how telling a true war story can and will cause people to with draw and go in to denial and do not want to talk about what happen after they told you the story very vividly the first time.My son got back from Iraq(looking for WMD)3 years ago when he got home it was very obvious that he had changed.I asked him about what had happen to him overthere.He told me about what had happen to him and his unit and I could not believe what he was saying but trust me it was not good.The things that happen to him and the things that they did were things that happen in all wars.He has to go to Drs at the VA and take medication all the time now.He is a basket case and now denies that he was ever in Iraq and threw his bronze star away and hardly ever leaves the house.So it sounds like to me the person you talked too had a bad day and just wants to forget about it.I know he agreed to talk to you but after he did it brought back those memories that he thought he could talk about but after it was all said even after 60 + years it still haunts him and hurts him to remember.I think this is what happen to this poor guy.I think his story is right on the money.I wish this brave person well.

Dennis J

**History** · 03-12-2009, 10:10 AM

I didn't think it was breath taking, but it was straight forward and clear. It's hard to remember these old guys are just people and people I know that are my age ,older or younger lie and blow up stories all the time. But in these people are people who always tell the truth and never lie or exagerate things but add to that age and you just never know. But what you did was fine and not confusing at all. I just read Dennis' post and want to make sure I dont offend anyone with my post about liars or blow-hards, of course people can be in denial and dealing with post traumatic stress. I would never try and offend anyone who has fought in a war for me and Our country!!!

**armorrich** · 03-12-2009, 11:11 AM

Wishing well....

Dennis J......I wish you and your son well!!! Another who has sacrificed so much.....I've lived long enough to know that the human mind is a hell of a complex machine. What can seem completely absurd to one can be frighteningly real to another. I thought the story in this thread was very compelling. Who knows what torment he's going through inside...I'd say just leave him be and carry on.......best, rich

**MikeP** · 03-12-2009, 01:05 PM

Armorich, you made a very good point.

Alll of which will be ignored by insensitive guys who blithely blunder about yanking scabs off old wounds in the name of "history".

I used to pester WW2 vets when I was a kid.
One got mad and suggested I be man enough to go out and have some experiences of my own.

I did and came to understand what he meant.

**armorrich** · 03-13-2009, 08:55 AM

How right you are......

You hit it right on the head my friend....after many years of pleasant conversation with a vet friend and neighbor, he one day told me "if you like this crap so much, why don't you join the REAL army".......so after a year of questioning weather i could make it through basic or not, i trudged off to see the recruiter an idealistic child at the ripe old age of 30......18 1/2 yrs. later and i've about had it

and i haven't even come near ANYTHING like the subject of this thread or any other vet experienced. Idealism is a luxury of the young......nothing to do with the concept of this thread but maybe just a small peek into the thought process.......best, rich

**Jean-Loup** · 03-13-2009, 06:30 PM

This is an old thread (and bad memory) woken up. Thanks for the additional comments. I would like to answer MikeP and Rich.

"Alll of which will be ignored by insensitive guys who blithely blunder about yanking scabs off old wounds in the name of "history".
I used to pester WW2 vets when I was a kid.
One got mad and suggested I be man enough to go out and have some experiences of my own."

I dont know if your are specificaly refering to me and my work with the words "insensitive", "pestering" and ""history"". Do you think that my research is not history? I think it is much beter then the so popular sending photos to get signed by RK winners, reenacting and similar activities... I would like to suggest that some of what I have done can be considered more then just "blundering about", here are two examples for you:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ighlight=moles
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=308676

You cant make an omlet without breaking eggs, and these omlets were highly appreciated by all those involved.

Anyways, I would first like to say that I totaly respect the fact that some people do not want to talk about their war experiences. When I talk with a veteran like that, I reply: "that is not a problem, I understand that you do not want to talk about it. Thank you anyways for talking to me and for liberation France during WW2"

The fact is that most WW2 veterans are proud of what they did during WW2, and are happy to talk about it, and they often thank me for recording their memories and showing interest in their stories (see below image). Viet Nam and more modern war vets may be a totaly different story because those wars have been much more controversial, and vets were sometimes highly critisised by their own countrymen for participating in those wars: defenetly enaugh to make anyone sour about the subject.

So lets say that we can all have different opinions, and I certainly respect yours, but you may want to be slighly more understanding and respectfull in your way of formulating it.
As for being a man and getting my own stories, I hope to achieve that without becoming part of an army and being forced to participate in events I do not agree with and do not want to participate in. I believe that the army isnt the only place to be "manly" for various reasons, but this is an other story.

Dennis S, that is a very sad story concerning your son, and I hope that he gets over it with time.

Jean-Loup

Attached Files

erase1.JPG (32.8 KB, 57 views)

**Lasse L** · 03-15-2009, 04:31 PM

Allthough oral accounts are intressting I do belive they should be cross-checked. I know of several accouts where world war 2 veterans have built on their stories, added things that wasent true and things which they later claim to not have said. A few years ago a swedish journalist wrote two books about swedish SS volounteers. The books where pretty much BS (Which ironicly is the authots initials) and pretty much dident mention any sources, but refered time and time again to two SS veterans and what they had told him. One of them, showed up to be lying about his service in the Wiking and Nordland division. But another case was even worse, he claimed to have been a guard at KZ Treblinka, to have participated in the killing of jews etcetra, the author, being a journalist, took the whole story in and wrote a big chapter about the swedish murderer at Treblinka.

The problem? Well, once another newspaper begin to look into the whole story it turned out that at the time he claimed to have been a guard, the camp was already torn down, and the man himself was placed at a mental hospital.... In the second issue of the book, the chapter was removed and not a word was being said about it....

It was a great story ofcourse, but as none of it was true, it was just a story. And even if we want to belive everything the veterans say, I belive it to be quite important to actually look into their storys, try to get them confirmed by others or by documents...

**A H** · 05-27-2009, 08:37 AM

There are a few spelling mistakes, but maybe that is because its translated from French to English. A few small gramatical errors, but it isn't terrible.

Your not Dyslexic, in the slightest.

A good report mate, I for one enjoyed reading it

Adam

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