Hermann Göring commited suicide on today's date

[james m]

To james m, who asserted some time ago that there was no connection between the Reichsmarschall and the "Final Solution", I submit the following (written by G. to Reinhard Heydrich, 31.07.1941):

“Complementing the task already assigned to you in [my] directive of 24.01.1939, to undertake, by emigration or evacuation, a solution of the Jewish question as advantageous as possible under the conditions at the time, I hereby charge you with making all necessary organizational, functional, and material preparations for a COMPLETE SOLUTION [my emphasis] of the Jewish question in the German sphere of influence in Europe.
Insofar as the jurisdiction of other central agencies may be touched thereby, they are to be involved.
I charge you furthermore with submitting to me in the near future an overall plan of the organizational, functional, and material measures to be taken in preparing for the implementation of the aspired FINAL SOLUTION [my emphasis]of the Jewish question.” (Translation of Document 710-PS, in Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Volume II)

~ Mike Miller

The Wansee Conference(1942) is generally agreed as the point in which extermination of the Jews was decided upon. The above correspondence occurred(1941) prior to this conference and alluded to prior discussion in regard to deporting the Jews.
Goering was NOT listed as an attendee at the Wansee Conference.
Goering was also overheard quietly remarking to another defendent at Nurmburg when the Holocaust evidence was being presented: "What was Himmler thinking?" Hardly an indication that he had indepth knowledge of the Holocaust.
I question whether Goering was any more involved in the Holocaust than Joseph Speer. and I think it's evident he had no involvement in the extermination planning. IMO: He should have received a life sentence just like Hess and we would have a much better understanding ot the inner workings of the 3rd Reich today.
I am NOT defending Goering's actions but I do believe we lost more than we gained by forcing him to commit suicide.
Jim

Quote:

"The Wannsee Conference was a meeting of senior officials of the Nazi German regime, held in the Berlin suburb of Wannsee on 20 January 1942. The purpose of the conference was to inform administrative leaders of Departments responsible for various policies relating to Jews that Reinhard Heydrich had been appointed as the chief executor of the "Final solution to the Jewish question". In the course of the meeting, Heydrich presented a plan, presumably approved by Adolf Hitler, for the deportation of the Jewish population of Europe and French North Africa (Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia) to German-occupied areas in eastern Europe, and the use of the Jews fit for labour on road-building projects, in the course of which they would eventually die according to the text of the Wannsee Protocol, the surviving remnant to be annihilated after completion of the projects.[1] Instead, as Soviet and Allied forces gradually pushed back the German lines, most of the Jews of German-occupied Europe were sent to extermination or concentration camps, or killed where they lived. As a result of the efforts of historian Joseph Wulf, the Wannsee House, where the conference was held, is now a Holocaust Memorial."

[BrianK]

To james m, who asserted some time ago that there was no connection between the Reichsmarschall and the "Final Solution", I submit the following (written by G. to Reinhard Heydrich, 31.07.1941):

“Complementing the task already assigned to you in [my] directive of 24.01.1939, to undertake, by emigration or evacuation, a solution of the Jewish question as advantageous as possible under the conditions at the time, I hereby charge you with making all necessary organizational, functional, and material preparations for a COMPLETE SOLUTION [my emphasis] of the Jewish question in the German sphere of influence in Europe.
Insofar as the jurisdiction of other central agencies may be touched thereby, they are to be involved.
I charge you furthermore with submitting to me in the near future an overall plan of the organizational, functional, and material measures to be taken in preparing for the implementation of the aspired FINAL SOLUTION [my emphasis]of the Jewish question.” (Translation of Document 710-PS, in Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Volume II)

~ Mike Miller

I agree 100% - Goring knew all about the Final Solution. Imprisoning him would have gone against the popular opinion of the times. It would be like imprisoning Osama bin Laden.

[james m]

The paragraph below is taken from the United States Holocaust Museums biography of Herman Goering and it is hardlly a neutral opinion. Please note that even they maintain that by 1943 Goering was essentially "out of the loop" and not really involved in any major decision making. No claim is made by the Holocaust museum's staff that Goering was involved in the Final Solution as orchestrated and carried out under the control of H. Himmler and the SS.
While there is in no definitive proof one way or the other that I am aware of regarding Goering's actual knowledge of the Holocaust I think it's apparent he wasn't a key player in the planning or administration of it.
Jim



"Goering rapidly sank into lethargy and a world of illusions, expressly forbidding General Galland to report that enemy fighters were accompanying bomber squadrons deeper and deeper into German territory in 1943. By this time Goering had become a bloated shadow of his former self, discredited, isolated and increasingly despised by Hitler who blamed him for Germany's defeats. Undermined by Bormann's intrigues, overtaken in influence by Himmler, Goebbels and Speer, mentally humiliated by his servile dependence on the Fuhrer, Goering's personality began to disintegrate. When Hitler declared that he would remain in the Berlin bunker to the end, Goering, who had already left for Bavaria, misinterpreted this as an abdication and requested that he be allowed to take over at once; he was ignominiously dismissed from all his posts, expelled from the Party and arrested. Shortly afterwards, on 9 May 1945, Goering was captured by forces of the American Seventh Army and, to his great surprise, put on trial at Nuremberg in 1946."

[BrianK]

No, Goring didn't do it. Himmler & Heydrich did. Goring just directed Heydrich to get rid of the Jews any way they could, and they did so in their own way.

[james m]

No, Goring didn't do it. Himmler & Heydrich did. Goring just directed Heydrich to get rid of the Jews any way they could, and they did so in their own way.

Yes I believe you're are right:

Quote from Goering orders:

"emigration or evacuation, a solution of the Jewish question as advantageous as possible under the conditions at the time"

Apparently Goering wasn't much of a writer so he figured using terms such as "emigration or evacuation" would register with Himmler and his minions as license to set up death camps and systematically kill several million Jews.

Better inform the Holocaust Museum so they can alter their biography on Goering.

[BrianK]

Goring knew full well that the trains heading east weren't sending people on vacations. He had his own political survival to consider, and went along with Himmler's plans, even though he preferred an economic solution of expulsion. All the Holocaust museum websites I find on Google quote the 1941 letter to Heydrich, and link him to the Final Solution.

[james m]

Whatever

[juoneen]

Of course there were good reasons for sentencing Goering to hang,as the nuremburg trials outlines his illustrious career , drug addiction, the four year plan, slave labor , theft of art, and so much more , it's more than many collectors will ever realize , or understand. I will refrain from beating the dead horse with that stick by trying to broach the subject any further, as It would blow some collectors minds if they realized just how evil Goering really was. But I will say I think I know who helped smuggle Goering the cyanide capsule that took his life he had hidden until he knew for sure he was going to hang for his treachery.Anywho.... Here is what I found out:

In 1951, von dem Bach-Zelewski claimed that he had helped Hermann Göring commit suicide in 1946. As evidence, he produced cyanide capsules to the authorities with serial numbers not far removed from the one used by Göring.

[james m]

If you have a copy of "Hitler and the Nazi Leaders" by John Lattimer the actual cyanide capsule container used by Goering is pictured on Page 105. He also have a "backup" capsule secreted in a skin cream jar in with his luggage. It was found after the suicide.
Jim

[colt45s]

Goering wanted a soldier bullet , not rope... did he and Himmler get along ?

[juoneen]

Here is the take in general of goerings orders to heydrich, as michael miller just posted the actual statement in detailis on the last page of this thread(from the actual directive), but this will help james understand as it is reduced to its simplest form .
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article....uleId=10007112

One man who stood up to Adolph was joseph kammhuber,and lived, if you read the account of his arguing with hitler, he was shipped off to Luftflotte 5 in Norway, till he was brought back to work in the ME 262 program, and the V2.He was investigated by trial officials, and judged not guilty of crimes against humanity. If adolph had listened to his suggestions, the war certainly would have gone another way. I think some here just idolize certain nazis, and have not done enough reading on the subject.

More on the subject:http://books.google.com/books?id=TIH...hitler&f=false The radio buffs will enjoy this.

[BrianK]

Goering wanted a soldier bullet , not rope... did he and Himmler get along ?

Both tried to be second in command to Hitler; each secretly tried to undermine the other.

[james m]

As far as I'm concerned the evidence presented that Goering directly ordered the Liquidation of the Jews in the death camps is circumstantial at best. At worst , and I believe this was the case, he became the fall guy for Hitler, Himmler and Heydrich none of whom could be brought to justice since they were already dead. Goering as the highest ranking Nazi still alive,I'm discounting Donitz's role at the end for this discussion, was the obvious target on which to place the blame and exact revenge.
I agree that Himmler and Goering were adversaries. They also both strongly resented the influence Bormann had over Hitler.
Jim

[colt45s]

the US reporter asked Hitler" Is it true what you are doing to the prisoners?" He said is it true that you killed Indians and made slaves with your blacks?

[Michael Miller]

James, It's true that Goering did not attend Wannsee. But he was not unrepresented there. Wannsee was a meeting of State Secretaries, men directly representing Reich Ministers. Goering was represented, in his capacity as head of the Four-Year Plan Office, by Erich Neumann.

I admit that I'm a near-ignoramus with regard to international law, but it seems a given to me that If one orders a subordinate to remove a population from the continent [even if he reserves the method to the subordinate's discretion], he is as responsible for the outcome as that subordinate.

Regarding your statement "As far as I'm concerned the evidence presented that Goering directly ordered the Liquidation of the Jews in the death camps is circumstantial at best"-- I don't think anyone here or elsewhere has ever made that assertion.

~ Mike