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**Paul R.** · 11-16-2008, 10:08 PM

Thanks for posting the photos. Where these items laying on something inside the case? Like a piece of wood, paper? Did you wear gloves while handling there medals? I am trying to eliminate common possibalities. I am thinking it may be out gassing from the cabinet, or body oils from touching the medal. Then reacting to out gassing from the cabinet enviroment. Paul

**cysior** · 11-17-2008, 06:06 AM

Paul .They are lying on glass, i don't wear any gloves but I aways wash&dry my hands before touching them.

**Paul R.** · 11-17-2008, 07:51 AM

cysior, Simply washing your hands usually is not quite enough. Even though we use soap body oils are still left behind in small traces. Soap also has various things in them that can react to body oil and metal. It may be triggered by the cabinets out gassing. also make sure that there is no residue of glass cleaner left behind on the cleaned glass shelfs. It's always best to use cotton gloves while handling your items. Of course these are your items to do with what you see fit with them. Paul

**cysior** · 11-17-2008, 01:29 PM

When i bought IKEA cabinet I washed shelfs in water only.

The only thing that is odd for me is that yelow "patina" shows up on my EK2 always in exactly same place on the frame. This yellow thing on cross comes off easy with cotton cloth though.
Here are some pictures

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**cysior** · 11-17-2008, 01:33 PM

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**Paul R.** · 11-18-2008, 02:52 PM

How close are these to the wood cabinet frame?

**cysior** · 11-18-2008, 03:01 PM

EK is in the middle, let's say 2ft.
I just noticed that same yellow stuff shows up on my silver plated plate, which I keep in same room, but not in cabinet. I guess something is in the air

I moved in to this house 4 moths ago, the doors were lacquered and walls were painted, new furniture - maybe that's the problem..

**Paul R.** · 11-18-2008, 06:54 PM

It sure is out gassing, Yes It could be the room, or a combo of both the room and the cabinet. Can you store them in a acid free box? Paul

**cysior** · 11-18-2008, 07:12 PM

No fun to hide collection in box, but I guess I could put some pieces like EK in there. I was thinking also to try little bit vaseline to cover for instance Ek frame (just this one spot) and see what happen. I found some post on here that vaseline is not dangerus for badges..am I correct?

BTW thanks Paul for your help !

**Paul R.** · 11-18-2008, 09:57 PM

Unfortunately Vaseline is a petroleum based product. Yes, it can cause serious damage not to mention moisture, dust, seepage, and staining. Especially if some would touch the blacken center core.
Some use Ren Wax. In my conservation lab we do not use ren wax on any silver items. Paul

**bobcam1** · 11-18-2008, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by Paul R. View Post

It sure is out gassing, Yes It could be the room, or a combo of both the room and the cabinet. Can you store them in a acid free box? Paul

Paul,
What, specifically, made you certain that out-gassing was the only explanation for these stains?

I've seen metals that suffer from this type of rouging, for a variety of reasons and I'm just wondering why you seem sure that out-gassing is the culprit...

Thanks,
Bob.

**Paul R.** · 11-19-2008, 10:22 AM

Since I am only making a comment to a vague question from a member. I should have asked a few more questions. Sometimes due to my work load I can't always go into extreme detail or length on a topic.

There are only few things that can cause color change in medals. A medal laying on a heated surface (high to medium heat) can cause color change. If there is an oily film or slight chemical film left behind on the metal then heat applied that can cause discoloration. A chemical residue in or around a metal can cause (out gassing, or fuming vapors) reacting to metals can cause color.

This is not rocket science here. It’s just basic science chemistry. It actually doing similar experiments with metals both bare and chemical treated, or applied to a surface (sealer type). Next time you get a piece of scrap metal or different types of metals to play around with it. If at home you have a gas cooking stove there is a source of heat and flame. Apply some chemicals to the metal and heat it up, or apply bleach and a low heat, apply an oily surface and heat. Don’t forget suspend a small piece of bare metal in a can of varnish, lacquer for a couple of weeks. (make sure it’s at room temperature) Also apply a salty water solution to a piece of bare metal. Try some of these things yourself to see what can happen. Of course do not use one of your cherished medals.

If you want some proof these things can happen try things yourself. These are things that you can always get from books. Some people can' t get there heads around conservation and think this stuff is bogus, or made up b@@sh@t and dosen't happen and that's fine. They are usually the ones that cry the loudest when the need help.

To know the craft of conservation you need to allow yourself to recreate and conduct experiments. You don’t need to take my word on this. I have done several these types of experiments. Even as a kid I was always conducting weird science experiments. I have torn things apart and looked at old threads, old plastics, fabric, and leather items and ran experiments on them to see what happens. Some conservators don’t do these things at that fine, but I do and will continue to do so in my line of work.

**cysior** · 11-20-2008, 08:33 AM

I decided to use Ren Wax. Also I've heard that flowers works like natural air filters, so I'll get couple yukka's

I will continue to observe.
If no improvements I'll move collection to another room.
Thanks Paul.
ps. Bob if you have any other suggestions - let us know

**Stahlhelm** · 11-22-2008, 12:42 AM

Hi, cysior:

For whatever it's worth, I'll add my opinion here too. After reading every bit of the above posts, I must agree with Paul. It also sounds to me as if it is an "out-gassing" issue and/or something to do with handling the items without gloves. As Paul said earlier, once you eliminate everything else it could be, and isolate the remaining possibilities, those seem to be the most likely culprits.

I agree that most people just don't take the skin oil issue seriously enough for one. Skin oil, even from freshly-washed hands, is enough to cause problems down the road, especially with pieces that have such mint or pristine finishes remaining. Skin oil is the cause of much slow, but eventual deterioration and corrosion of metals.

As Paul said, you can do what you want, but I'd say that taking all available precautions is the best course of action for you--especially since you are having a problem, and you are clearly and understandably worried about it. Just eliminate everything it could be, and then see what happens. Even if you have to put on a pair of white cotton gloves every now and then, the rewards later could well be better than the headaches resulting from handling your items without the gloves. Gloves are cheap, but the benefits can be priceless.

I'm also a coin collector and have been for more years than I've been a collector of militaria. I can also fully attest to the effects that, for example, non-acid-free papers, etc. can eventually have on the coloration of a coin only in their proximity. "Out-gassing" is, I agree, a very mysterious thing that is all the more harder to believe mostly because it's invisible. Most collectors have trouble dealing with dangers that are invisible and/or not immediately detrimental to a collection. However, and/or tragically enough, most of these invisible things become very visible permanently and soon enough.

I apologize if I sound like I'm giving a speech here, but I talk and type about this stuff so much that I sometimes just get carried away thinking about it, sometimes even forgetting exactly who I'm talking to and even what the original question was. I'm in the same boat as you are with this stuff, in general, and it's driven me nuts more than once too. The only advice I can give here is to just suggest, like Paul, that you take every available precaution, and see if the problems continue. In the ideal environment, metal doesn't do much more than remain the same, with few exceptions I know of. Just do all you can to maintain that ideal, low-humidity, gas-free, skin-oil-free environment, and cross your fingers. Beyond that, there's really not much else any of us can do.

Good luck, and let us know what you do and what happens. Knowledge of your experiences may help us all someday.

Chris

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