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**Stahlhelm** · 11-04-2008, 10:31 AM

Hello:

Yes, I would normally say don't clean anything, however I must admit that I personally do have some, very situation-specific exceptions. The case you describe above may just be one such exception in my book. The exception for me is based on what you describe as a distracting, deep-green color, which I also assume is over the entire buckle.

The dark-green coating on the copper you describe sounds like copper acetate or verdigris, as it is commonly called. It certainly makes sense to me that verdigris would have, in fact, formed on the copper buckle, after having been exposed to the conditions which you describe. Verdigris is a very common type of corrosion, found on most items made of copper, and exposed to the elements over time.

Again, as for removing it, I would personally consider this to be one of those exceptional cases. As for exactly how it is best and safest to do so, I cannot say that. However, I'm sure that someone else will jump in here to advise you on that soon enough, if indeed there are any others who will even support my opinion to remove it.

Because of the stark appearance of verdigris, and how it most often clashes with anything upon which it exists, it is one of my most disliked types of corrosion. If you have only spots of verdigris on top of an item that contains copper beneath a nickel-silver plating, for example, you then must also consider the color difference/contrast that will be left, in any case, after the removal. For example, if you remove verdigris from the surface of a fire-gilted Golden Party Badge, you must then deal with the dark brown color beneath the gold plating--plating which has already been removed by the verdigris, as it surfaced.

I only included the above examples to tell you how it can sometimes be better to just leave it alone. However again, from what you describe, this does not appear to be your case.

Hopefully helpful,

Chris

P.S. I'm sure that someone will pop in here soon enough and tell you, as you expected, to NOT remove it. Someone else's argument to the contrary may be just as convincing in another way, and I urge you to consider all opinions, before you settle on your own.

**J.von Canon** · 11-04-2008, 02:50 PM

Thanks

Thanks for your opinion Chris.
Your feelings are pretty much my own.
The entire rectangular ("Virginia style")C.S.A. belt buckle is a deep green on front and back.
Since these buckles have a much higher copper content than brass they tend to be dug up a rich brown color as a rule.I have about 20 or so such buckles but this green one really "bugs" me...
Any body ever cleaned such an item?
I cleaned a very dark green Confederate Infantry button(same soil/fertilizer conditions) successfully and it soon darkened to a nice brown patina-as it should be.
I was thinking the same thing MIGHT hold true for a belt buckle.
These buckles being so very valuable is what really gives me pause...

**Stahlhelm** · 11-04-2008, 03:19 PM

I'm glad I could help you think about this. However, as you say, please do continue to "pause", until a few others jump in here and post additional opinions. Paul R, for one, always has some great expert advice on these subjects, and I'm sure he'll have something to add here, soon enough.

Chris

**1corps** · 11-04-2008, 04:11 PM

Hello. I was reading this thread with much interest. DO NOT CLEAN THE CONFEDERATE BUCKLE!!! If authentic, and I believe it is from where you found it, it would completely destroy the collector value in the Civil War world. Dug relics from the Civil War is a very active and growing interest and Confederate is considered the premier collectables. Cleaned Confederate items are completely shunned. I collected Civil War back sine the early 80's and never removed even dust from any pieces. Please do not try to clean the buckle. the 150+ years of oxidation and normal aging is what makes it precious and extremely collectable. Removing them destroys the integrity of the piece!! Mike.

**1corps** · 11-04-2008, 04:30 PM

My main concern is that by cleaning you run the risk of leaving an undesirable cleaned surface that really detracts from the piece. I have seen too many original Civil War items that were cleaned and just were destoyed by doing such. Please post some photos if you get the chance. I do not want to say you would not do a wonderful job, I am just concerned that it would look unnatural and then is authenticity is in question. There are a lot of faked aged CSA buckles out there and I want yours to stand out as an untouched original!! The difference between a $2,500 uncleaned buckle compared to a $100-$200 unnatural cleaned buckle would be a terrible shame. Mike.

**Stahlhelm** · 11-04-2008, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by 1corps View Post

Hello. I was reading this thread with much interest. DO NOT CLEAN THE CONFEDERATE BUCKLE!!! If authentic, and I believe it is from where you found it, it would completely destroy the collector value in the Civil War world. Dug relics from the Civil War is a very active and growing interest and Confederate is considered the premier collectables. Cleaned Confederate items are completely shunned. I collected Civil War back sine the early 80's and never removed even dust from any pieces. Please do not try to clean the buckle. the 150+ years of oxidation and normal aging is what makes it precious and extremely collectable. Removing them destroys the integrity of the piece!! Mike.

Thanks, Mike. Your good advice tells us exactly what collector's of Civil War militaria think about cleaning, in general. I would say that this advice pretty well answers the question here. I would never want to do anything to a piece that would cause it to be "completely shunned" in the collecting community. Different areas of collecting clearly have somewhat different tolerances for what is acceptable, related to removing corrosion. Based on your information, I must say that I would also surely leave this ground-dug buckle exactly as it is.

As you say above, the results of such cleaning can be unpredictable and disastrous.

Chris

**1corps** · 11-04-2008, 07:00 PM

Chris, thanks for your kind words.

Mike.

I enjoy your posts very much and seek your advice when it comes to taking care of our collectibles!!

**Stahlhelm** · 11-04-2008, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by 1corps View Post

Chris, thanks for your kind words.

Mike.

I enjoy your posts very much and seek your advice when it comes to taking care of our collectibles!!

You are most welcome, Mike. I also thank you for your compliments. I'm always happy to help, whenever I can.

Chris

**J.von Canon** · 11-07-2008, 01:26 AM

OK guys.
You win.
It will not be cleaned-but it sure is tempting.All those nice brown C.S.belt buckles and THIS green one!
I have been collecting Confederate buckles & buttons for about 45 years and was hoping that there was some "safe" cleaning technique that was unknown to me.
No doubt about it's being original,however,as I even know the pasture it came from near Bell Buckle,Tennessee(an encampment site of Stewart's Corps).
Thanks much for your opinions.
J.v.C.

**nutmeg** · 11-07-2008, 01:51 PM

The above advice is very good. Cleaning will ruin the value. Collectors of dug Confederate plate value a nice deep patina.Once cleaned it will look like one of the excellent repros around.

**pantherv** · 11-07-2008, 06:22 PM

...

Any chance we could see the buckle.

Peter

**J.von Canon** · 11-07-2008, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by pantherv View Post

Any chance we could see the buckle.

Peter

Sure will.
But I'm not able to post pictures.
The buckles(all of them)are at my other home and I won't be over there for another couple of weeks.I'll photograph all of them(including the "green C.S.A.)and send the photos to anyone willing to post them (for me)
Send me a pm if interested.
Thanks.
J.v.C.

**Johnny R** · 11-07-2008, 09:47 PM

IMO as someone who has worked with many metal ground dug items you really should contact a professional conserver for this, I would not mess with it at all, as noted exposing newly uncovered surfaces to air etc. can cause it to flake apart. It has been in the ground for 150 years and is now out of the conditions it preserved in. There should be people who conserve metal items at the State Museum. I would contact them before doing anything.

**J.von Canon** · 11-08-2008, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by jhodgson View Post

IMO as someone who has worked with many metal ground dug items you really should contact a professional conserver for this, I would not mess with it at all, as noted exposing newly uncovered surfaces to air etc. can cause it to flake apart. It has been in the ground for 150 years and is now out of the conditions it preserved in. There should be people who conserve metal items at the State Museum. I would contact them before doing anything.

Thanks for your advice-but my experience with museums has been dismal.
Loaned a Confederate Bowie knife to the U.D.C. Museum in Columbia,S.C. years ago and when I came to retrieve it there was some sort of cleaning stain(looked like someone had dropped rifle bluing on the blade)and there I was feeling stupid for having loaned it...
I think the readers of these topics have a much greater actual knowledge of this subject than underpaid "curators" at museums(who are often thieves - but that's another topic).
Thank you one and all who have responded.
Peter-will send pics of (all) the Confederate belt buckles to you asap.

J.v.C.

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