Fakes of the RS&S Fleet and other ball-hinge badges

[Snoman]

I'm inclined to think this one is good,but???

Thanks for looking.Steve

[Snoman]

Obverse

[JAndrew]

I would agree, a good badge. Too bad about the catch.
JAndrew

[John R.]

Yes, period badge. John

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

It looks pretty good, but I'll remind you that the R.S.&S. Fleet badges usually show exceptionally crisp detail - better than most zincers.

Here are some comparisons to the badge in question. First, look closely at the obverse detail and note the calibre of the cannon bores, and the drainage holes on the tip of the prow and the central anchor. On the reverse look at the external and internal trimming outlines which usually have very sharply defined irregular margins.

[Norm F]

Look at the ball hinge and crimp. The texture of the ball hinge seems different and it's soldered within the circle instead of being crimped in. Although one might argue it's a repair, this is a feature commonly seen on Staegemeir fakes that don't duplicate the crimp properly.

[Norm F]

And finally the catch crimp. Normally the sheet metal catch is continuous with rectangular flap of metal contained within the crimp. If it breaks off one should still see the normal crimp outline and the piece of sheet metal within, but here it looks distorted and half filled in as though a catch had been soldered into a casting of a crimp base (like in the case of the hinge) and then broken off.

I'm really not a fan of this badge, I'm afraid.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Another comparison for the overall gestalt. Also, I've never seen an original with the wreath and swastika finish extending over the ship's range finder like that...

[JAndrew]

Points well made Norm. I think I shall reconsider my opinion based on them. On the obverse there is a left side porthole filled with whitish material. If it is a bit of rubber then I am for sure going to give it a thumbs down.
JAndrew

[fischer]

And finally the catch crimp. Normally the sheet metal catch is continuous with rectangular flap of metal contained within the crimp. If it breaks off one should still see the normal crimp outline and the piece of sheet metal within, but here it looks distorted and half filled in as though a catch had been soldered into a casting of a crimp base (like in the case of the hinge) and then broken off.

Hi Norm

The RSS IAB examples use the typical ball hinge and and flat stock catch crimped to the reverse, much like the RSS HSF example you show here.

Somewhere along the line, something must have happened to the crimping method as the RSS IAB's are also found with the both the ball hinge and catch soldered in place over the crimping location. The RSS badge that started this thread reminded me of this.

With my limited knowledge of the KM badges, I was wondering if other RSS KM examples have this same attribute?

Best Regards, fischer

[Norm F]

Hi Norm

The RSS IAB examples use the typical ball hinge and and flat stock catch crimped to the reverse, much like the RSS HSF example you show here.

Somewhere along the line, something must have happened to the crimping method as the RSS IAB's are also found with the both the ball hinge and catch soldered in place over the crimping location. The RSS badge that started this thread reminded me of this.

With my limited knowledge of the KM badges, I was wondering if other RSS KM examples have this same attribute?

Best Regards, fischer

Hi Don,

The IAB hardware attachments you show are different from the Fleet badge under discussion since, as you rightly described it, on the IAB the ball hinge and catch are soldered into the crimping location but not into an actual completed crimp. The upper layers of the crimps are completely absent on your IAB so the hardware was simply soldered into the uncovered crimp bases while in the factory. In contrast the Fleet badge (in my opinion) is likely a fine casting of a fully crimped badge and the fake hardware was then soldered onto the vestiges of the cast crimps.

I have not (yet) seen an R.S.&S. Fleet badge showing the hardware features of your IAB.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

What kind of catch do the fakes normally exhibit?

[John R.]

If this is a fake, then it is the first RSS HSF with a ball hinge and this type of catch which we have seen.

The Stag fakes are nothing like this.

John

[JAndrew]

John,
I totally agree with you which is why I was so quick to say this was a good badge. But I now think I was wrong and my hat is off to Norm for demonstrating so well why I was wrong. I now think this is a new fake but not a dangerous one. The only danger about this fake is my own smugness by thinking nobody has/would ever fake the ball hinge and so not looking at it closely enough. As I look closely at Norm's larger photos I can see the telltale signs that this is a cast piece.
JAndrew

[Norm F]

What kind of catch do the fakes normally exhibit?

If this is a fake, then it is the first RSS HSF with a ball hinge and this type of catch which we have seen.

Hi John,

Most of the Staegemeir fakes of badges with crimped hardware use round-wire catches soldered into the castings of the crimp (for example the HA Coastal Artillery badges). Of course, the RS&S Fleet badge we're discussing here has no catch at all -- just a replica rectangular crimp with a distorted opening and no sign of an original catch having been broken off at the base. It's hard to know if there was a catch soldered on at some point which has broken off, but regardless the opening of the rectangular crimp, such as it is, does not look normal.

This is not to be confused with the soldered-on catch and ball-hinge on the R.S.S. IAB posted by Don (fischer) which is an original and quite different from what we're discussing here.

Yes, this is the first RSS Fleet badge fake of this quality we've seen, but it's not the only one. Here's another, cruder attempt at the same, and if I'm not mistaken Steve owns this one as well and acquired it from the same seller as the first badge.

Best regards,
---Norm