Help With Equipment Set

[timg]

Hi Gents,

I would like to put a set of equipment together for a Gunner, Heavy MG. What I would of called in my time as Complete Equipment Fighting Order or CEFO.

Period I am after is 37-early 39 prior to Poland Operations.

Despite reading up I am a bit confused re the Y Straps. Would he have them or would he be belt only with tunic hooks? Would the early issue be straps only with no auxiliary straps or a pair with the extra straps?

I presume if they have the extra straps I would need the earlier style with the rear upper "d Rings " inline with the strap and not canted.

I presume also that his side arm would have been P08 Luger of indeterminate age.

Re the Gasmasken dose and contents, the pattern changed during that period. Would a guy having a 37dated issue one be reequipped with the newer pattern or soldier on with the old one??

Belt buckle.. Third reich eagle or Riechswier (did they all re- equip or carry on with what they had??)

Bayonet or not??

Any advice gratefully received along with any other advice as to equipment carried or recommended to look for as lots of gaps in my knowledge base re this element.

As an aside I have already the following.
MG Work/spares pouch
Flask and mug matching 37 dated,
Mess tins (repainted but 37/36 dated mix)
Bread bag (41 dated but early pattern with leather reinforcing to loops)
Shovel 37 Dated (No carrier)

Regards,

Tim

[anmarlodz]

Hi Gents,

I would like to put a set of equipment together for a Gunner, Heavy MG. What I would of called in my time as Complete Equipment Fighting Order or CEFO.

Period I am after is 37-early 39 prior to Poland Operations.

Despite reading up I am a bit confused re the Y Straps. Would he have them or would he be belt only with tunic hooks? Would the early issue be straps only with no auxiliary straps or a pair with the extra straps?

I presume if they have the extra straps I would need the earlier style with the rear upper "d Rings " inline with the strap and not canted.

I presume also that his side arm would have been P08 Luger of indeterminate age.

Re the Gasmasken dose and contents, the pattern changed during that period. Would a guy having a 37dated issue one be reequipped with the newer pattern or soldier on with the old one??

Belt buckle.. Third reich eagle or Riechswier (did they all re- equip or carry on with what they had??)

Bayonet or not??

Any advice gratefully received along with any other advice as to equipment carried or recommended to look for as lots of gaps in my knowledge base re this element.

As an aside I have already the following.
MG Work/spares pouch
Flask and mug matching 37 dated,
Mess tins (repainted but 37/36 dated mix)
Bread bag (41 dated but early pattern with leather reinforcing to loops)
Shovel 37 Dated (No carrier)

Regards,

Tim

Pre war MG man in period you described would not have Y-straps ( the period photos show it very well ). The M39 ( aling M39 backpack and A-frame ) were introduced in late 1939, after invasion of Poland, and seen action, in some limited quantity, in France ( but still at that point not all soldiers got them ). Period photos ( at least those I have seen ) showing as well that earlier, light weight Y-straps were not used by the MG man, but show some sort of improvised straps ( for example from bakcpack straps and equipment straps ).

The light weight straps were used mostly by cavalery units, KM units, and LW units ( sometimes used by officer, but mostly you can spot on photos that most of them was using cross straps ).

Infantry was carrying all the stuff on the belts hanging on jacket hooks and jacket suspenders

I would say that Y-straps ( M39 ) were in common use from 1941 onwards ( well visible on period photos ).


Regarding the other equipment; pre war period ruled roost on its own. There a mix of all avaible stuff. From one side it was tramnsitional period when german army still was in convert from professional army to draft army and was in need for all sort of equipmen.
In other words were using all avaible equipment.
Offcourse some old equipment was withdrawn from army use ( like old high Reichswehr gamsask canister in high top or M24 gasmasks with bags ) and handed over to other formations ( like police and auxilary units ), but you can find period photos showing soldiers using small gas cans or M16/M18 helmets during invasion on Poland and much further.

Periods photos are showing MG soldiers using bayonets as well ( have no idea why - same with soldiers carrying MP ). Most of early periods show P08 as side arms ( but I guess they were using all avaible equipment - including captured austrian and czechoslovak side arms ).

Regarding the buckles;m since you can find Reichswehr era buckles dug ups in ex-east front ( in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Baltics States ) than were used simultaneously ( with the except that Reichswehr era buckles were not made anymore after 1936 ).

[timg]

Hi,

Many thanks for that speedy response, much appreciated. Seems quite a load to carry on belt only but at least I have a better idea of what to go for.

No doubt I will have other items to ask about, for instance I have seen camoflaged zelt dated 38 so presume he would have one. I will have to start looking at more pictures etc to see how the kit was arranged and organised.

If you don't mind I will use this thread to post pics occasionally to confirm pattern etc, although I might have to resort to repro items if things get awkward.

Spaten tasche seem particularly challenging to find at the minute.

Regards

Tim

[pzo]

Hello Tim,
Period pictures are the best source! This is my old thread. You can start here: https://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...d.php?t=903743
I add some pictures. Pay attention to the leather box on the table. Is it box for MGZ or for Richtkreis?!
On the second pictures boots are interesting. These are early high boots with shoe laces and buckles on sides.

[timg]

Hello PZO, How are you keeping

Nice pictures with good clarity, especially round the table view ( from the boots I am presuming mountain troops ?)

Personally I have never seen a leather case for the MGZ sight so I am leaning towards the RK31 Optics case. (complete with hard to find leather sling....at least hard to find for us not them )

Early blank firing adaptor, and I believe that the laffette and the barrel carrier on the table are in three colour cam due to the good lighting and different tones on the black and white picture. Second pic is also good, no y straps and at least one bayonet. What is the long pouch to the rear of the right hand mans belt??

Regards

Tim

[timg]

RK 31 Case

optic case RK31 and ancills

[pzo]

Hello PZO, How are you keeping

Nice pictures with good clarity, especially round the table view ( from the boots I am presuming mountain troops ?)

Personally I have never seen a leather case for the MGZ sight so I am leaning towards the RK31 Optics case. (complete with hard to find leather sling....at least hard to find for us not them )

Early blank firing adaptor, and I believe that the laffette and the barrel carrier on the table are in three colour cam due to the good lighting and different tones on the black and white picture. Second pic is also good, no y straps and at least one bayonet. What is the long pouch to the rear of the right hand mans belt??

Regards

Tim

Tim, I am OK and more or less looking for the same pieces as You are. Yes, on the first picture there are mountain shoes. I also have not seen leather case for MGZ. Is there any belt loop on the back of beautiful box for RK31 that You posted? On the pictures dated later, during war, the MG gunner is usually equipped with bayonet. The pouch on the second picture could be for wire cutters or small tripod for RK. Hard to say.

[anmarlodz]

Hello PZO, How are you keeping

Nice pictures with good clarity, especially round the table view ( from the boots I am presuming mountain troops ?)

Personally I have never seen a leather case for the MGZ sight so I am leaning towards the RK31 Optics case. (complete with hard to find leather sling....at least hard to find for us not them )

Early blank firing adaptor, and I believe that the laffette and the barrel carrier on the table are in three colour cam due to the good lighting and different tones on the black and white picture. Second pic is also good, no y straps and at least one bayonet. What is the long pouch to the rear of the right hand mans belt??

Regards

Tim

Not neccessary GBJ (no visible edelweiss on sleeves ). Could be simply Jaeger ( as they wore same style equipment as GBJ - boots, caps and anoracks)

The pouch on the side of the one of the soldier would be wire cutters pouch I guess.

[anmarlodz]

Hi,

Many thanks for that speedy response, much appreciated. Seems quite a load to carry on belt only but at least I have a better idea of what to go for.

No doubt I will have other items to ask about, for instance I have seen camoflaged zelt dated 38 so presume he would have one. I will have to start looking at more pictures etc to see how the kit was arranged and organised.

If you don't mind I will use this thread to post pics occasionally to confirm pattern etc, although I might have to resort to repro items if things get awkward.

Spaten tasche seem particularly challenging to find at the minute.

Regards

Tim

Splittermuster zelts were made from 1931 so were quite common in the period of 37-39 ( and laready replaced older one color examples, which were handed over to paramilitary units and auxilary units like RAD etc ).

[anmarlodz]

Hello Tim,
Period pictures are the best source! This is my old thread. You can start here: https://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...d.php?t=903743
I add some pictures. Pay attention to the leather box on the table. Is it box for MGZ or for Richtkreis?!
On the second pictures boots are interesting. These are early high boots with shoe laces and buckles on sides.

First photos is very interesting as all soldier wear old, Reichswehr jackets. Must be a very early period of Wehrmach existance, as eagles looks to be very early grey base examples ( I guess not later than 1937 ).

[timg]

First photos is very interesting as all soldier wear old, Reichswehr jackets. Must be a very early period of Wehrmach existance, as eagles looks to be very early grey base examples ( I guess not later than 1937 ).

Hi anmarlodz,

Nice picture isn't it. I would agree on the rough timescale , but I am basing it on the weaponry and equipment. That BFA on the MG is written up as only being used on the "possibly" first but definatley second pattern 34. I zoomed in on the photo and can just see the selector on the pistol grip for fast/slow fire. Plus as I said looks like the paint job on the kit is 3 Colour which was changed in 38.


PZO,

Thanks for the link to the other thread, some really good pics of equipment sets and items from other collectors so it is really helpful. Whilst I remember my RK31 case does have the belt loop, the strap however did come with it but is an enigma as it is not marked. Lots of leather goods in those days were that colour so I would be very "brave" to declare it "authentic" Probable period is all I can say.

[pzo]

Hi anmarlodz,

Nice picture isn't it. I would agree on the rough timescale , but I am basing it on the weaponry and equipment. That BFA on the MG is written up as only being used on the "possibly" first but definatley second pattern 34. I zoomed in on the photo and can just see the selector on the pistol grip for fast/slow fire. Plus as I said looks like the paint job on the kit is 3 Colour which was changed in 38.


PZO,

Thanks for the link to the other thread, some really good pics of equipment sets and items from other collectors so it is really helpful. Whilst I remember my RK31 case does have the belt loop, the strap however did come with it but is an enigma as it is not marked. Lots of leather goods in those days were that colour so I would be very "brave" to declare it "authentic" Probable period is all I can say.

Tim,
I have checked some boxes for RK31. They do not have belt loop like in the box laying on the table. I am leaning towards that box is very early MGZ box, made of leather. I am adding some pictures. One is very interesting, because it displays gas mask in rubber coating.

[anmarlodz]

Tim,
I have checked some boxes for RK31. They do not have belt loop like in the box laying on the table. I am leaning towards that box is very early MGZ box, made of leather. I am adding some pictures. One is very interesting, because it displays gas mask in rubber coating.

Nice photos. As visible some limited quantity of Y-straps ( and A-frames as well ) were under the field tests during invasion of Poland.

Very interesting photos with experimental rubber canister for gasmask ( not easy to find ). Those supposed to be developed for KM use.