M24 Grenade -frag Sleeves

[francis006]

Very nice Raoul
My green is like your tan one but without any markings ...BTW try to find 2 tan colored please

[milsurp]

Does everyone think the tan sleeve is pre '45?

Would it be possible to have a picture of the mm on the tan sleeve?

Thanks,

Craig.

[MGN]

Hey Craig,
Looks similar to the one I posted earlier on page one, from a construction view.

Michael

[Mark Holden]

I just want to thank all those who contributed to this thread. I learned a lot more thanks to your help. Clearly strong feelings over smooth Frag Sleeves but it has restored my faith in this Forum as a place you can debate and learn.

Thanks Chaps

Mark Holden

[milsurp]

Willi,

What makes you so convinced that the tan frag sleeve is in fact a period piece?

[Maus]

Hi Craig I got the tan one out of a canister of 24s .Unfortunately i only could get 2 of the M24s. The ring is marked 44

[Willi Z.]

Craig, based on ALL of our past "discussions" on frag sleeves/paint/aging, etc, there is nothing I will be able to say that will convince you..... I don't mean to sound rude, I just don't have the time for yet another endless exchange. ALL the points I have made in the numerous threads on this subject matter still apply.

If I point out the details, you will, as you always do, say it isn't so in your opinion. You wanted to see an original sleeve that was not "brb44" marked..here you have two.

Collectors like Francis and Raoul know what they are doing. Their items speak for themselves. Sometimes a photo or two, like in this case, prove that point.

[milsurp]

Hello,

Thanks for the reply. Would it be possible to post more detailed pictures of the tan sleeve please?

Hi Craig I got the tan one out of a canister of 24s .Unfortunately i only could get 2 of the M24s. The ring is marked 44

[milsurp]

Willi, it has been strongly intimated by long standing ordnance collectors on this forum, that the only acceptable manufactured serrated frag sleeves are the ones commonly marked brb44 that have been forged, not stamped during the manufacturing process (raised corners). This is the very first stamped sleeve to appear on this forum (over many threads) that has been given the thumbs up by you, so for many of us it is a revelation. I don't understand why the physical design of this sleeve (disregarding age/paint/patina for the moment) is acceptable when similar sleeves have been disregarded at least partly based on this same point. There seems to be an inconsistency.

The problem is, no one has said in plain English that stamped serrated original sleeves existed until this thread and out of all the pictures this is allegedly the first.

My point is, many of us feel we know what we are doing, but based on previous threads, I know many would not purchase a stamped frag sleeve regardless of patina/paint/age/mm, but purely because it is stamped. So in my opinion this is an important point for all of us.

Craig, based on ALL of our past "discussions" on frag sleeves/paint/aging, etc, there is nothing I will be able to say that will convince you..... I don't mean to sound rude, I just don't have the time for yet another endless exchange. ALL the points I have made in the numerous threads on this subject matter still apply.

If I point out the details, you will, as you always do, say it isn't so in your opinion. You wanted to see an original sleeve that was not "brb44" marked..here you have two.

Collectors like Francis and Raoul know what they are doing. Their items speak for themselves. Sometimes a photo or two, like in this case, prove that point.

[Willi Z.]

WHO said the tan sleeve is stamped?

WHO could possibly say that ONLY "brb44" made sleeves?

If the only original sleeves that most have seen are made by "brb44", then most would also assume that only "brb44" made those sleeves. I have never said such a thing. An absolute such as that can not be said in this hobby. We can also not say that all "oxo44" are fake. We can say that to date, all the "oxo44" sleeves in that goofy shade of green, that only appeared on the market in the last ten years, are fake. We can also say that original sleeves are rare, always have been rare, and will continue to be rare. Most will NEVER find one.....

Are you really going to tell me that you can not see the difference between the "oxo44" sleeve on the first page and this tan sleeve?

[milsurp]

Willi, sorry for the delay in replying, I've been way too busy this week, 1,000+ miles. Anyway onwards....

WHO said the tan sleeve is stamped?

I am, you can see from the picture that the sleeve is stamped and not forged, it has undergone a completely different manufacturing process. Do you think this is a forged or stamped sleeve?

WHO could possibly say that ONLY "brb44" made sleeves?

No one, but noone has said this either, but the only commonly agreed originals have been marked by this manufacturer, thus far.

If the only original sleeves that most have seen are made by "brb44", then most would also assume that only "brb44" made those sleeves. I have never said such a thing. An absolute such as that can not be said in this hobby.

I didn't say you or anyone else said this, but if you ask anyone who has been following these threads, then these are now the only serrated sleeves anyone will be comfortable buying.

We can also not say that all "oxo44" are fake. We can say that to date, all the "oxo44" sleeves in that goofy shade of green, that only appeared on the market in the last ten years, are fake.

Yes, you are probably right. I would agree that the OXO '44 sleeves we have seen here do not look right based on the paint/age/patina alone, but that isn't to say the physical structure of the sleeve is incorrect.

We can also say that original sleeves are rare, always have been rare, and will continue to be rare. Most will NEVER find one.....

I agree as far as serrated sleeves are concerned.

Are you really going to tell me that you can not see the difference between the "oxo44" sleeve on the first page and this tan sleeve?

No, I'm not going to tell you that and you know that, but only with specific refference to the age/patina of the sleeves. However, this is not the specific point I am trying to make. If this stamped tan serrated sleeve proves to be original, then it is the first stamped serrated sleeve to be shown on this forum. Anything that turns up as a '1st' here, is important and I was just trying to highlight that point for other collectors.

I take it you don't see the importance of this sleeve?

[reidmuller]

you can see from the picture that the sleeve is stamped and not forged, it has undergone a completely different manufacturing process. Do you think this is a forged or stamped sleeve?

Craig sorry but this one is also forged its just the scores arnt as deep you can see that the edges very are slighty raised also if you look at where the two lines cross that the the horizontal (going round the sleve) lines are done first and the verticle ones next and slice through and left a slight raised edge on the horizontal lines if you know what i mean
so It is Forged
Also whats this stamped prosess you speak of? do you mean it was stamped while hot to make the impression?

[milsurp]

Thanks for the reply. You don't need to apologise, I don't purport to be an authority on the subject, I am just a learning collector with an enquiring eye that is questioning what we have before us. I might be wrong...<O

However, IMO the squares that are clearly in focus in the middle of the sleeve look stamped, but towards the outside of the sleeve they look like they might be forged in certain areas under low res. I have used Photoshop to enlarge both what appears to be stamped and forged areas of the sleeve (see below). Now with parts of the image enlarged, I don't think it exhibits the same raised corners that we clearly see on the green sleeve. I think it is the shadows and patina under low resolution that gives it the forged look in certain areas. Do you still think it has been forged?

<O
Yes, when I refer to a serrated sleeve as stamped, I meant it had been stamped whilst the metal is hot to make the impression, however I guess machining the groves would also give the same effect. Do you think they are stamped or machined?

Craig sorry but this one is also forged its just the scores arnt as deep you can see that the edges very are slighty raised also if you look at where the two lines cross that the the horizontal (going round the sleve) lines are done first and the verticle ones next and slice through and left a slight raised edge on the horizontal lines if you know what i mean
so It is Forged
Also whats this stamped prosess you speak of? do you mean it was stamped while hot to make the impression?

[airbiscuit]

Have we pretty much established that segmented frag sleeves that appear to have the lines cut into them, as opposed to hot forged, are fake? Great thread.

[milsurp]

Not really this is the debate going on at the moment.

Have we pretty much established that segmented frag sleeves that appear to have the lines cut into them, as opposed to hot forged, are fake? Great thread.