M24 Grenade -frag Sleeves

[milsurp]

last one...

[reidmuller]

Hi Craig the smooth frag sleve on first impressions looks ok as the wording "VOR GEBRAUCH SPRENGKAPSEL EINSETZEN" means before use insert fuze which would usually be on the grenade head but the frag sleve would cover it thus you would not be able to see it so some ingeneous worker must have come up with the idea to remind the troops and i suppose very rear and the maching makers mark is a nice touch to prove its providence but still there are many good fakes about but i havent seen one like this so i would say its good
The first serrated one i need more pics as it doesent look good to me.
Adam

[reidmuller]

craig the first frag sleeve i dont like but maybe more pics the second is allmost for sure good as it looks like its been on that M43 all its life the 3rd again looks wrong in my opinion
Adam

[Mark Holden]

Craig,

I like the second one you showed, not convinced by the smooth ones but have no hard facts to say why, other than a general concensus that these are copies.

Here is the very faint MM on my relic sleeve you can just make out the 44 under a glass the code appears to be brb -Richard Rinker of Iserlohn.

regards

Mark

PS I like Helm Hunters smooth frag sleeve-very nice and I would say a good one.

[reidmuller]

ok acording to Bergflak they are forged so if you look at the first 2 you can see they are forged with the very slightly raised coners on the squairs so modern fakes cant replicate this as it is too expensive so if you look at the sleeve strate on or role it on a table if it is smothe role I.E. dosent shake the lines are machined like the oxo one but if the squairs are slightly raised its origional look at the photos and it will expalin what i am on about
Adam
Sorry if it sounds a load of rambaling but if you are an enginer you will understand me

[milsurp]

Thanks for the replies Mark/Adam. I know Willi is probably tired of hearing me trying to prove that there are genuine non brb 44 serrated frag sleeves, but I'm just not convinced that theses are the only genuine serrated sleeves.

Sorry Adam, these are not my sleeves, so I can't post any more pics of them.

Therefore can I ask a few questions about the sleeves I have posted...

1) Apart from the non brb 44 manufacturing process, what's wrong with the first and third sleeves I have posted?

2) Would you consider the 2nd picture that I posted as being a typical brb '44 sleeve?

Just curious....

[reidmuller]

Craig the first and third if you look closely the edges og the squairs are flat as it was machined as in a tool was used to cut away the metal but the brb ones that were forged when hot pushed the metal out of the way so up makeing the coners of the squairs raised thats the best way i can explane it the second is to rusted and nor clear enough to tell if it is a brb 44
Adam

[milsurp]

Adam,

But that's my point, who says that only brb manufactured serrated frag sleeves? Where else have we seen only one manufacturer of a particular item when it came to German WWII militaria?

I personally think the 2nd sleeve I posted does not exhibit these manufacturing variances. It looks very flat to me.

[Willi Z.]

Craig, I have NEVER stated that only "brb" manufactured serrated sleeves. I judge the sleeve by the features, paint, age, patina, rust/wear patterns and details....not by the makers. The way the makers stamp is stamped onto the sleeve is another area I look at, not who the maker is. I have not simplified this as a matter of the maker and I don't appreciate your comment.

As for my opinion based on all the fakes and originals I have seen........and only based on the provided photos is that I do not like #26, I like #27....I do not like the first (#29) and third (#31) serrated sleeve, but do like the second (#30). Like others have stated, it is the features I IDed above that I use to make my opinion.

[reidmuller]

OK im going to show some pics to show what i mean it is a manufacturing prosess on which i am going by the 2 you are on about are machined so very strong and not as likely to break up like ment to as they have just scored the surface if you look at the first photo (hope you dont mind MGN) it has cut the metal away showing it was machined so very flat


The second was scored while hot so pushing the extra metal to the sides makeing the raised edges round the scores makeing it very brittle and thus fragment when exploded if you look at the photo you will see a raised edge


i hope this has cleared things up But the 2nd photo the sleeve is way to far gone to see these traits the piting would make it impossible to see them
Adam

[Willi Z.]

Nicely done Adam! I agree completely.

[Mark Holden]

Adam,

I think you have demonstrated the point exactly....however never say never so I hope some more relics turn up with different characteristics but for the
time being the smooth shallow grooved style will not be for me.


Mark

Nicely done Adam! I agree completely.

[milsurp]

Adam, It's OK I knew the point you were trying to make about the raised edges which only seems to be a characteristic of brb 44 serrated frag sleeves. The difference being it looks as if it is scored when the metal is hot rather than it being machined. My point is that I don't think all genuine sleeves exhibit this manufacturing technique and not all original serrated frag sleeves are manufactured or stamped as brb 44 (although I am looking for some proof). The trend has been on this forum, that unless it exhibits these raised areas, then it is most likely a reproduction, I personally do not agree with this train of thought. I also agree that it would normally exhibit some form of patina, however as the example below illustrates, not all original sleeves show their age or this black patina, we have all grown to expect in an original sleeve. The example below does not have the look of an original based on the age of the paint, but it does when you consider the design. I don't think anyone here would consider this one to be a reproduction...

Willi I meant nothing by my comment and when I said "there are genuine non brb 44 serrated frag sleeves" I was reffering to the design not the mm. Perhaps I read too much into one of your previous posts (post #3 here). In which case I am not sure what you meant by "and the sleeve itself" if you weren't talking about the design/manufactured look.

[milsurp]

Piece as discussed above.

[Willi Z.]

Craig, I disagree...the one you posted above does exhibit the paint, age, wear, features of an original.... It is just a cleaner one than most tend to be. They do not all have be be completely rusted and worn.

I am still trying to figure out what you are trying to prove. Every original, the few that really exist, have what Adam has pointed out. Every reproduction, the many that are now encountered, are missing certain features. Thread after thread, we have been saying the same thing about sleeves. You are saying something else and no one is buying it.